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Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz

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AlexBW
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2017/06/12 19:22:15 (permalink)
According to this review Sony X700D TV REVIEW XBR55X700D supports chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz both at 1080p and 4K.
 
I have XBR55X700D directly plugged into my gaming computer. I upgraded my graphics card to GTX 1080 Ti yesterday. GTX 1080 Ti supports DP 1.4, HDMI 2.0b and HDCP 2.2. I am using a high speed Monster HDMI cable to connect the two.
 
nVidia control panel only displays 8bit YcbCr422 if I select 3840x2160 @60Hz. The only way I can get YcbCr444 is by selecting refresh rate 30Hz which results in dimmed display with a bit of flickering and doesn't look good when I am playing PC games. Apparently HDR works only @30Hz with YcbCr444.
 
I would really like to run my setup @60Hz 4K YcbCr444 with HDR enabled. How do I make it work ?
 
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

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    MDeckerM
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:29:05 (permalink)
    Hello,
     
    per the review you linked did you already follow this step?
     
    "Like the Sony X750D, the X700D can display Chroma 4:4:4 at 4k @ 60Hz only on the HDMI port 2 and 3 and you need to switch the 'HDMI signal format' to 'Enhanced format'. When the picture mode is set to 'Graphics' or 'Game' the input lag is 31.4ms."
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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:33:20 (permalink)
    EVGATech_MDecker
    Hello,
     
    per the review you linked did you already follow this step?
     
    "Like the Sony X750D, the X700D can display Chroma 4:4:4 at 4k @ 60Hz only on the HDMI port 2 and 3 and you need to switch the 'HDMI signal format' to 'Enhanced format'. When the picture mode is set to 'Graphics' or 'Game' the input lag is 31.4ms."


    Thanks.
     
    Oh yes, I have. I have it connected to HDMI 2, also tried HDMI 3, didn't succeed in getting 4K 444 @60Hz !



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    MDeckerM
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:40:20 (permalink)
    are you setting a UHD, HD, SD resolution or a PC resolution?
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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:47:02 (permalink)
    XBR55X700D only provides two options:
    1. Standard 
    2. Enhanced Format (for ports HDMI 2 & 3 only, with HQ HDMI signal 4K 60p 4:2:0 10bit, 4:4:4, 4:2:2)
     
    I have selected Enhanced Format, of course.
     

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    MDeckerM
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:49:30 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    XBR55X700D only provides two options:
    1. Standard 
    2. Enhanced Format (for ports HDMI 2 & 3 only, with HQ HDMI signal 4K 60p 4:2:0 10bit, 4:4:4, 4:2:2)
     
    I have selected Enhanced Format, of course.
     




    Let me rephrase this, are you setting a UHD, HD, SD resolution or a PC resolution in the Nvidia control panel?
     
    There are two types of resolutions in the "Change Resolution" are of the NVCP, UHD/HD/SD or PC
     
    What is the highest resolution available under "PC"
     
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    HeavyHemi
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:54:45 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    According to this review Sony X700D TV REVIEW XBR55X700D supports chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz both at 1080p and 4K.
     
    I have XBR55X700D directly plugged into my gaming computer. I upgraded my graphics card to GTX 1080 Ti yesterday. GTX 1080 Ti supports DP 1.4, HDMI 2.0b and HDCP 2.2. I am using a high speed Monster HDMI cable to connect the two.
     
    nVidia control panel only displays 8bit YcbCr422 if I select 3840x2160 @60Hz. The only way I can get YcbCr444 is by selecting refresh rate 30Hz which results in dimmed display with a bit of flickering and doesn't look good when I am playing PC games. Apparently HDR works only @30Hz with YcbCr444.
     
    I would really like to run my setup @60Hz 4K YcbCr444 with HDR enabled. How do I make it work ?
     
    Any help will be greatly appreciated.




    What you're wanting ultimately isn't using color compression or YcbCr. You should be setting RGB, full and 8bit in the Nvidia control panel.  It isn't impossible that your HDMI cable is at fault. You need one that is rated for 18Gbs. Microsoft HDR is bugged on some displays. For the time being, that should not be enabled in the Windows display setting.

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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 19:58:30 (permalink)
    Ah, sorry, thought you were asking about the TV options.
     
    On my PC under Ultra HD, HD, SD - highest resolutions are
    4k x 2k, 4096 x 2160
    4k x 2k, 3840 x 2160 (Native)
     
    Under PC:
    1680 x 1050
     
    I have 4k x 2k, 3840 x 2160 (Native) selected.

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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 20:06:52 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    Ah, sorry, thought you were asking about the TV options.
     
    On my PC under Ultra HD, HD, SD - highest resolutions are
    4k x 2k, 4096 x 2160
    4k x 2k, 3840 x 2160 (Native)
     
    Under PC:
    1680 x 1050
     
    I have 4k x 2k, 3840 x 2160 (Native) selected.


    That is the correct setting (native) for a 4K TV used for a display.  Oh..I'm sorry I missed HDR in your first post. You cannot use both at the same time. Either HDR with reduced chroma sampling or 4:4:4 with 60hz 8 bit. And use the full setting RGB and 8 bit.
    post edited by HeavyHemi - 2017/06/12 20:11:54

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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 20:19:51 (permalink)
    As per the review I linked and yet another article I came across (can't seem to find that now), my TV does support what you said can't be achieved. As per the review I linked -
            4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + 8 bit HDR : 32.4 ms

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    bcavnaugh
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 20:26:15 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    As per the review I linked and yet another article I came across (can't seem to find that now), my TV does support what you said can't be achieved. As per the review I linked -
            4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + 8 bit HDR : 32.4 ms


    Being the Review is not from Sony you should ask Sony if you can do what you are asking.
    Reviews can be in error.

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    HeavyHemi
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 21:28:22 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    As per the review I linked and yet another article I came across (can't seem to find that now), my TV does support what you said can't be achieved. As per the review I linked -
            4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + 8 bit HDR : 32.4 ms


     

    Read that carefully, it is 8 bit HDR not HDR10. It will not work with HDR10 unless you use a lower Chroma subsampling.

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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 22:18:45 (permalink)
    I guess what I am trying to ask is - why am I not able to change to 8bit 4:4:4 @60Hz ? My TV is capable of this, why wont the graphics card let me ?

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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/12 23:29:41 (permalink)
    It's a limitation of HDMI 2.0 from what I can find - just not enough bandwidth available (HDMI 2.0 has 18Gbps available at most), which is why I wish TVs would adopt Display Port (which won't happen anytime soon).
     

     
    My KS8000 (10 bit panel, 60Hz 4K HDR TV) also only allows me to set 4K 8 bit at 4:4:4. At 4:2:0 I can set 8 or 12 bit. At 4:2:2 I can set 8, 10, or 12 bit. It's the same with my 980 Ti and my old 1080.
     
    To me, RGB at 8 bit and full range looks better than any of the Chroma settings. Chroma uses compression, RGB doesn't - so I leave it set to RGB. Not to mention that when turning on HDR under the Windows 10 (creator's update) display settings video output looks all washed out and bleh.
     
    Long story short, you aren't going to be able to run 4:4:4 at 60 Hz and 10 or 12 bit, it's just not possible with HDMI 2.0. 8 bit yes, and if you get flickering then it likely means that you have a HDMI cable that isn't pinned out right.
     
    If you want more info, the Nvidia forums or Sony's forums / support line would be the way to go.
    post edited by arestavo - 2017/06/12 23:54:50
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    Quad5Ny
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/13 10:26:22 (permalink)
    Your HDMI cable doesn't matter, it's not like DisplayPort.  If the cable was bad you would be seeing colored sparkles all over the screen (especially in dark areas).
     
    1. HOME button > Settings > External Inputs > HDMI Signal format
    2.  
      Note: You might want to use Limited Range RGB or YCbCr444 as some Sony displays have color banding issues with full range.  Test Pattern (to check with) here: http://i.imgur.com/zYtLsRR.png
    post edited by Quad5Ny - 2017/06/13 10:33:04
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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/16 15:54:45 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone that helped me with this problem and thanks QuadN5Ny for taking the trouble to post those nice screenshots !
     
    It was the HDMI cable indeed. I bought a new cable that claimed to support 4K 444 @60p and much to my dismay I was able to get 4K @60p HDR with both chroma 444 and RGB Full ! The only annoying problem is it boots to a green screen with nothing displayed on it with chroma 444 set. The only way out is to blindly log out and log back in. So, I guess I am not done yet.
     
    I am going to try and reboot with RGB Full and see if that solves the problem.
    post edited by AlexBW - 2017/06/16 15:58:16

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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/16 21:10:18 (permalink)
    OK, RGB Full has no issues. Any ideas why YcbCr444 results in green screen upon reboot ?

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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/16 22:10:36 (permalink)
    Well I was wrong about it not being the cable.
     
    I am curious though, the cable itself shouldn't block you from selecting a resolution or color depth.  If it wasn't able to handle the pixel clock you would just get a blank screen or various degrees of 'sparkles' on the screen.
     
    As for the YCbCr444 green screen, not sure about that one.  You're using a TV so it should support it.  It doesn't really matter though as RGB Limited has the exact same picture quality as YCbCr444 (if you wanted to use that instead of RGB Full).
     
    Anyway glad to hear everything is working.
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/16 22:26:34 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    OK, RGB Full has no issues. Any ideas why YcbCr444 results in green screen upon reboot ?




    A green screen is typically an issue with the card not outputting the proper settings (something to due with clock timing). I had green screen problems back with my Sony X810C when I was messing with getting 1080P at 120Hz working.
     
    Honestly, RGB full is the BEST picture quality that you can get on a TV currently until Display Port on TVs becomes a thing. Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to run Chroma even at 4:4:4 over RGB.
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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/17 21:11:24 (permalink)
    Quad5Ny
    Well I was wrong about it not being the cable.
     
    I am curious though, the cable itself shouldn't block you from selecting a resolution or color depth.  If it wasn't able to handle the pixel clock you would just get a blank screen or various degrees of 'sparkles' on the screen.





    I used to think the same way,  a cable is a cable after all !  Apparently the cable couldn't handle the bandwidth for 4K chroma 444 @60p as that would require >= 18Gbps.
     
    Quad5Ny
    As for the YCbCr444 green screen, not sure about that one.  You're using a TV so it should support it.  It doesn't really matter though as RGB Limited has the exact same picture quality as YCbCr444 (if you wanted to use that instead of RGB Full).

     
    arestavo
     
    A green screen is typically an issue with the card not outputting the proper settings (something to due with clock timing). I had green screen problems back with my Sony X810C when I was messing with getting 1080P at 120Hz working.
     
    Honestly, RGB full is the BEST picture quality that you can get on a TV currently until Display Port on TVs becomes a thing. Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to run Chroma even at 4:4:4 over RGB.




    I have set it to RGB Limited and so far no issues. The green screen issue arises only with chroma444 @60p. Surprisingly I am able to see the UEFI boot logo and Windows spinning wheel animation at startup, only when it loads desktop screen turns green. If I blindly log out and log back in the green screen goes away, the desktop loads and things are normal until I reboot. So, I am not sure if it is related to clock timing. May be the graphics driver is crashing which results in green screen, the graphics driver resets but the display is not reset until I log off and re-login. Well, I am not sure where to look, I am more of a linux guy.

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    HeavyHemi
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/17 23:31:56 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    Quad5Ny
    Well I was wrong about it not being the cable.
     
    I am curious though, the cable itself shouldn't block you from selecting a resolution or color depth.  If it wasn't able to handle the pixel clock you would just get a blank screen or various degrees of 'sparkles' on the screen.





    I used to think the same way,  a cable is a cable after all !  Apparently the cable couldn't handle the bandwidth for 4K chroma 444 @60p as that would require >= 18Gbps.
     
    Quad5Ny
    As for the YCbCr444 green screen, not sure about that one.  You're using a TV so it should support it.  It doesn't really matter though as RGB Limited has the exact same picture quality as YCbCr444 (if you wanted to use that instead of RGB Full).

     
    arestavo
     
    A green screen is typically an issue with the card not outputting the proper settings (something to due with clock timing). I had green screen problems back with my Sony X810C when I was messing with getting 1080P at 120Hz working.
     
    Honestly, RGB full is the BEST picture quality that you can get on a TV currently until Display Port on TVs becomes a thing. Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to run Chroma even at 4:4:4 over RGB.




    I have set it to RGB Limited and so far no issues. The green screen issue arises only with chroma444 @60p. Surprisingly I am able to see the UEFI boot logo and Windows spinning wheel animation at startup, only when it loads desktop screen turns green. If I blindly log out and log back in the green screen goes away, the desktop loads and things are normal until I reboot. So, I am not sure if it is related to clock timing. May be the graphics driver is crashing which results in green screen, the graphics driver resets but the display is not reset until I log off and re-login. Well, I am not sure where to look, I am more of a linux guy.


    Also, you should be running full and not limited. You may have to to adjust the HDMI black level. I was suspecting it was your cable. Monster...I only use their speaker cables. I have  couple of sets from the 80's they are 15' and weigh a couple of pounds...fine strand twisted copper...thick as jumper cables... ha.  Here's a decent site to calibrate your set: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
     
     

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    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/20 13:40:15 (permalink)
    HeavyHemi
    Also, you should be running full and not limited. You may have to to adjust the HDMI black level. I was suspecting it was your cable. Monster...I only use their speaker cables. I have  couple of sets from the 80's they are 15' and weigh a couple of pounds...fine strand twisted copper...thick as jumper cables... ha.  Here's a decent site to calibrate your set: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/



    It is my understanding that Full should be used only with LCD monitors while Limited should be used with TVs as TVs are not capable of displaying full range, unless I got that wrong.
     
    Thanks for the link. I was already following this to calibrate my TV - https://lifehacker.com/5858625/how-to-calibrate-your-hdtv-and-boost-your-video-quality-in-30-minutes-or-less but, I would take a look into the one you linked.

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    #22
    HeavyHemi
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/20 14:59:26 (permalink)
    AlexBW
    HeavyHemi
    Also, you should be running full and not limited. You may have to to adjust the HDMI black level. I was suspecting it was your cable. Monster...I only use their speaker cables. I have  couple of sets from the 80's they are 15' and weigh a couple of pounds...fine strand twisted copper...thick as jumper cables... ha.  Here's a decent site to calibrate your set: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/



    It is my understanding that Full should be used only with LCD monitors while Limited should be used with TVs as TVs are not capable of displaying full range, unless I got that wrong.
     
    Thanks for the link. I was already following this to calibrate my TV - https://lifehacker.com/5858625/how-to-calibrate-your-hdtv-and-boost-your-video-quality-in-30-minutes-or-less but, I would take a look into the one you linked.




    Almost all recent 4K LCD TV' are capable of displaying full RGB correctly. Heck, my 2008 1080p Sony Bravia would do RGB full.  On the Lagom site you can verify fairly easily if your set will correctly display FULL RGB.

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    #23
    Quad5Ny
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/20 16:45:38 (permalink)
    On the TV:
     • Enable Enhanced Format
     • Change the Picture Mode to Graphics
     • Reset the Graphics Picture mode to its defaults
     • Set the Contrast to 100
     • Set the Gamma to -2
     • Make sure the Color temperature switched to Expert 1
    -
    Leave everything else off, that means:
     • Leave Sharpness @ 50 and Reality Creation off
     • DO NOT use the Smoothness setting on Motionflow - This introduces SIGNIFICANT input lag
     • Leave HDR, HDMI video range and Color space set to Auto
     
     
    On your PC:
      NVIDIA Control Panel:
    •Resolution, 2160p
    •Refresh Rate, 59.94Hz (Ie. 59Hz) - Setting this to 60Hz doesn't trigger the proper image filtering for 1080p sources (making them look more blurry)
    •Use NVIDIA color settings, Checked
    •Output Color Depth, 8-bit
    •Output Color Format, RGB
    •Output dynamic range, Limited or Full - Use this pattern to check which one has less banding
    -
      Windows Display Settings:
    •Set HDR and advanced color to Off
    post edited by Quad5Ny - 2017/06/20 16:48:46
    #24
    AlexBW
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/22 18:51:21 (permalink)
    Thanks to all who helped me with this problem.
     
    My TV developed a large dark spot in the top left corner, since this model is discontinued and my retailer offered an exchange, I returned this TV and bought a Samsung. I sure miss the quality and apps of Sony, but until Sony improves their quality and sort out other issues they seemingly have, I would stop buying Sony for now.

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    Syed117
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/22 18:58:14 (permalink)
    The HDMI cable absolutely matters.
     
    This entire saga is very well documented on random forums, including this thread on AVS:
     
    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/2016401-hdmi-cables-support-4k-60hz-4-4-4-chroma-deep-color-59.html
     
    Not every cable, not even every high speed cable will work. It's really hit or miss and the length of the cables also comes into play. The longer the length, the more chances of cables not working.
     
    I tried 3-4 different cables from Amazon around 20 feet and the only one that worked for me (Samsung KS8000 series) was the monoprice premium series. The passive one.
     
    Have had no issues with it over the last few months.

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    #26
    4B91AAD8A56F4AA
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    Re: Can't get XBR55X700D to output Chroma 4:4:4 @60Hz 2017/06/23 01:01:30 (permalink)
    Syed117
    The HDMI cable absolutely matters.
     
    This entire saga is very well documented on random forums, including this thread on AVS:
     
    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/2016401-hdmi-cables-support-4k-60hz-4-4-4-chroma-deep-color-59.html
     
    Not every cable, not even every high speed cable will work. It's really hit or miss and the length of the cables also comes into play. The longer the length, the more chances of cables not working.
     
    I tried 3-4 different cables from Amazon around 20 feet and the only one that worked for me (Samsung KS8000 series) was the monoprice premium series. The passive one.
     
    Have had no issues with it over the last few months.


     
     
    Sort of agree with above quote, i bought some amazon cables that were advertised as HDMI 2.0/arc/HDR compatible....... had screen popping in and out, sparkles on the screen, so i was a bit miffed, ended up buying Omars HDMI Premium cable which stopped the shenanigans, but still real big problem when i enabled HDR in windows(display setting) i.e washed out horrid looking picture.
     
    from what i've read this is a windows problem, some say to roll back the Nvidia drivers to earlier version seems to sort it out(but not tried yet)
     
    i suppose the moral of the story is, you are looking for HDMI certified cables look for the mark to buy, not compatible ones 
     
    http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/premiumcable/faq.aspx
     
    and yes they are a touch more expensive, but windows will always let you down :)
     
     
    post edited by baconinabun - 2017/06/23 01:17:10
    #27
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