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EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC

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ccosborne3
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2017/10/08 15:29:08 (permalink)
I went with the MSI Gaming Pro Carbon AC and regret it.
 
Phantom throttling is really limiting my chip, the VRM heat sink seems to be the likely culprit. So far I've updated the bios (helped a little bit), Upgraded from a 800w PSU to a 1200w PSU (also helped a little bit) but it still clamps down performance wise when my cpu hits the MEASLY mid 70's. It's maddening.
 
I've got a decent overclock going but it could be really, really, good and it isn't.
 
I just took the system apart for the 3rd time to put in a new case, was getting ready to strap some fans on the heat sink and said screw it, I'm gonna put the MSI MB on Ebay and just order the EVGA like I wanted in the first place. Maybe there won't be an improvement but I doubt it. Also going to go with a custom 200mm rad loop but will test the new MB first with my old cpu cooler just to see if there's any difference. I's got's to know.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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    EVGATech_RayH
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/08 16:24:41 (permalink)
    Hello, it is difficult to say if the issue is the VRM design or the board that you received may have a different issue. Out of curiosity, what CPU are you running and what OC have you managed?

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    ccosborne3
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/08 17:52:42 (permalink)
    Hiya Ray, thanks for taking the time.
     
    Build
    MSI X299M Gaming Pro AC
    I9 7920x
    EVGA CLC 280, with 2 additional Noctua Industrial 3000 RPM for push pull
    Samsung 960 Pro 512GB
    32Gb GSkill 4133 DDR4
    Corsair Air 740
    Corsair 1200w PSU, was Silverstone 800w SFX
    2 Zotac GTX 1080 ti mini's for SLI
    EVGA SLI Bridge
    Windows 10 Pro
    The first wall I hit was before I updated the bios, temp readings were all over the place. After the update things settled down so I could see what was going on. 2nd wall was the wattage draw, 800w PSU isn't enough for the 7920 and sli 1080 ti's, after replacing with the big PSU I was able to hit a stable 4.6 overclock. I rerouted the airflow on the EVGA 280 from intake to exhaust and that helped a little more getting the stable overclock to 4.7 but even at 4.7 there's some throttling. I think so anyways, wish there was some kind of alarm that would go off when it's not doing it's best.
     
    I'm new to the overclocking scene but in my mind there's one final wall to every overclock where it comes down to CPU heat and cooling and for a myriad of reasons I haven't been able to get to that stage, something chokes it out, the highest any core has reached is 81c and it should be able to hit 100c+. I wouldn't run it that high but it should be able to do it.
     
    I've run it as high as 5.1 and it won't shut down but if you run a benchmark test the scores peak at 4.7 and get progressively worse after. Best Cinebench 15 at 4.7 was 3130, 4.8 was high 2000's, 5.1 was low 2000's. 
     
    The 7920 has already exceeded my expectations, pre-purchase I was hoping with an overclock to hit a 2900 cinebench score and it already beats that but there's still a lot more potential there. The EVGA bios has a VRM temp counter and should help piece this thing together. It could be anything but I think it's the VRM heatsink. Before release somebody on the board mentioned that it was a dinky little heatsink on the MSI and I think that person is right. There's really only one way to find out.
     
    #3
    Snipes7
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/09 10:09:21 (permalink)
    Well there are many factors at work. Your old powersupply actually had more than enough power, the new one might just have better ripple surpression and thus delivering cleaner power to the VRMs.
     
    First of all 81 is perfectly fine especially for the 12-Core variant on just an AIO. They can take a lot (104C if  temp limit is raised) since you don't put the same load on the chip 24/7 as benchmark/stresstest tools like prime95 do all the time. If you hit 5.1Ghz that's pretty damn good. But you don't clarify if this is only CB R15 stable (benchstable) or rockstable.
     
    Anyways to give you a quick guide for the platform.
     
    Raise Vccin to 1.95v (up to 2.1 is save to set and forget, but I'm a bit more conservative, so raise more if needed to get your R15 scores up where they should be). That is to provide the needed power to the integrated voltage regulators in the chip (IVR). If out of balance (to low) when overclocking you wouldn't necessarily see instability but CB R15 would give you a lot lower Score (kind of throttling but kind of not since it's this time not heat related).
     
    Start out with Vccio and System Agent Volt at stock (not Auto, figure out the stock values, XMP tends  to raise them unnessecarily high) start with 3200Mhz Ram speed, tweak Ram later. Those two Volts might need manual tweaking to run 4133 and would still be a fair bit lower than auto. 
     
    If your cpu can't hold the 50x mulitplier in CB R15 and clocks down to lets say 47x then that would most likely be the -3 AVX offset in the bios. Hope EVGA offers seperate offsets for AVX and AVX 512. Try to find those and set them as desired. Just be warned they are there for a reason. AVX used by certain programs like Prime95 and R15 is very power hungry.
     
    Then R15 is only very short load. You would usually not see VRM overheat on a short R15 run it takes usually a couple of minutes for them to saturate their little block. But they will definitely eventually overheat when using prime95. Might just put a fan on top. It's fine though during normal use.
     
    The Mesh (formerly known as Cache might still be called like this in the bios) has a huge impact on this platform. It's worth raising it to 3000 since this should actually run at stock volts. sweetspot is 3200, that needs v1.1ish +/- 0.05v but Mesh hits a wall pretty soon after where volts won't help. So it's worth finding your sweetspot for mesh, since it also contributes to high temps.
     
    Disclaimer: my experience is from the 7900X on an open testbench. I got my 7920X ready but EVGA can't make their mind up as to when to provide the X299 Micro in Germany.
    The 7920X has a bigger die size which positively influences its ability to transfere heat between the die and the heatspreader due to a bigger surface area. But Mesh might need more volts, just work your way up. Nevertheless this chip is worth delidding, yours seems to be one of the better 25%.
     
    Sry for typos, but I hope you get the idea, if you have any questions just ask.
    post edited by Snipes7 - 2017/10/09 10:25:33

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    ccosborne3
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/09 17:06:07 (permalink)
    Thanks for the in depth analysis Snipes, nice of you. The PC is apart and waiting for the new parts, the EVGA board shipped out this morning. I'll work through your suggestions later this weekend after I get it put together again. The only changes I made to the settings was gradually increasing the vcore to find the lowest voltage it would run stable at and I implemented a -3 AVX offset that Silicon Lottery recommends for their delidded chips. They also recommend a -5 AVX offset but I never got around to trying it.
     
    Wouldn't it be nice if someone would review the 7920x? I've had it for 3 weeks and still not one solid review out there. 
     
    I'm all for delidding it but I want to get to the end of the trail of it's natural abilities before I do it.
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    ccosborne3
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/11 21:56:22 (permalink)
    EVGA board showed up today, the benchmark results are neck & neck with the MSI but the EVGA board is more stable and predictable. It's been stressing for the past hour and the 7920x looks good at 4.8, 1.269v. Had it up at 4.9 for a bit but the temps got into the low 100's so I pulled the plug. I should be able to get my little loop (200mm radiator, 2 Noctua 200mm fans push-pull) going by early next week though I'm not sure how much extra performance that's going to buy me. This EVGA 280 is pretty damn good.
     
    Benchmarks
    Cinebench R15             3121
    Novabench                   3920 CPU 2327
    CPU Z                          7749.6
    Passmark CPU              22248
    #6
    Snipes7
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/12 08:14:03 (permalink)
    Glad I could help. Cinebench score seems to be in line. But I think  @4.9 it could be a little higher. Vccin doesn't seem to be the problem now because drops caused by insuficient vccin are usually much greater, like you described easily 1000 point drops. But still worth tinkering with it. I fear  @4.9 it could already be thermal throttling of the chip itself. So always good to invest in some beefy cooling especially for SKL-X. 
    Also your ram is a pretty quick kit. If you stick it in with xmp the board still choses the secondary and third-timings on it's own to be able to run in a worse case scenario. So worth taking a look into those to get the most out of your high performance kit. Usually there is quite a bit more performance hidden.
     
    If you don't mind, could you post an Aida64 Memory Benchmark screen? I'm dying here curious of the latency performance achievable on the board with fewer dimm slots, should be better than the bigger boards. And and that benchmark is a good indicator when there are some performance issues with ram and cache. I expect your RAM with the 4133 kit to hit above 100k with 108-110k read assuming you run quad channel.
    post edited by Snipes7 - 2017/10/12 08:25:12

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    Iamrogue
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/18 07:32:35 (permalink)
    what the voltage on your cpu?

    i have experience with all 2066 CPUs, about 2-4 chips of every model


    100% of them does 4,7 at 1,25v
    none of them is trotling and the mobo i use is cheap MSI x299 SLI PLUS
    no other setting other that adjusting vcore was changed
     
    in my experience this MSI is way better in preformance than RVIE - this might change as i didnt have any time for it


    i9 7900X/7820X/7800X + X299 + 4x8GB Dominator Plat + EVGA 1080Ti + Samsung 960 Pro 512GB M.2 + Intel 3520 1,2TB U.2 + EVGA T1000 + CaseLABS Merlin + LC (Phanteks CPU&GPU, EK Monarch, BitsPower fittings, HW Labs radiators, D5) + 27" 1440p Acer Predator G-Sync

    SCOREs SLI 7900X http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/20742425
    7900X http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/20795561 7820X http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/20801227 7800X http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/20800296

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    Snipes7
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/18 13:35:54 (permalink)
    His also does 4.7 without issues. That's not the problem. As you said, that's what most chips will do. It's when you explore beyond 4.7 with more Vcore you probably need to raise Vccin accordingly otherwise you will experience the same massive performance drop eventhough it stable as the OP.
     
    I don't know how you test for 24/7 stability. But the entry MSI boards are the worst you can get. Half of their VRM components are on the backside of the board without a heatsink touching them. You can only pull roughly 180w continously before the VRM overheats if I recall correctly from the chart I posted before. It results in them dropping volts thus the CPU drops clock too. Might have to disable the agressive OCP otherwise the board shuts itself down before that happens though.
     
    Edit: Found the chart I posted before. The MSI SLI has the same VRM as the Tomahawk FYI.
     
    http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/WHz2DM.png
    post edited by Snipes7 - 2017/10/18 13:38:58

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    ccosborne3
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/18 20:55:05 (permalink)
    I sent the chip to Silicon Lottery for delidding it should be back for Friday, Saturday at the latest. I'm going to hook it back into the same system to see what was gained, I'm hoping for a stable 5.0 but 4.9 is probably more realistic, it'll be what it'll be. I've never delidded a chip before and may be expecting too much.
    I'm off until Monday so I should have enough time to get the new case and watercooling set up rolling. I decided to add a 240 rad to the 200, it's the most I can fit in the case but it should equal a 5-120mm fan system for one CPU, best I can do. I'm really interested in the temp difference between the EVGA 280 and my coming little loop.
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    ccosborne3
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    Re: EVGA X299 Micro vs MSI X299M Gaming Pro Carbon AC 2017/10/18 21:06:43 (permalink)
    Iamrogue
    what the voltage on your cpu?

    i have experience with all 2066 CPUs, about 2-4 chips of every model


    100% of them does 4,7 at 1,25v
    none of them is trotling and the mobo i use is cheap MSI x299 SLI PLUS
    no other setting other that adjusting vcore was changed
     
    in my experience this MSI is way better in preformance than RVIE - this might change as i didnt have any time for it





    4.8 was 1.269
    4.7 was 1.199, I think, I have to double check when I get it back up again.
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