rjohnson11
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kram36
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 00:20:12
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I'd like to comment on this, but the website won't let me view the page unless I disable my ad blocker or pay. They can kiss my rear.
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rjohnson11
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 01:01:26
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wmmills
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 01:01:28
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Theres a couple ways around it, but the greed of the stores selling the cards will not permit a solution.
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seth89
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 07:50:32
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/12499/q4-2017-discrete-graphics-card-shipment-report
I guess AMD is doing well with this, their share is up ~33%. This goes back to my theory that Vega is a compute card with a gaming logo on it.
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Junkogen
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 07:55:38
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Putting up those numbers, why even make cards for gaming anymore? I'm surprised they don't just make specialized mining cards which can also sometimes game.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 08:01:33
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Junkogen Putting up those numbers, why even make cards for gaming anymore? I'm surprised they don't just make specialized mining cards which can also sometimes game.
3 million graphics cards was only approximately 6% of the total graphics card sales of 2017. On the other hand, gaming, productivity, and mixed use accounted for 94% of 2017 graphics card sales. So, what do you think? Is your bigger market 6% or 94%? rjohnson11 Miners purchased over 3 million add-in board (AIB) graphics cards worth around $776 million in 2017. So this is why there is a graphic card shortage and that shortage will continue for some time to come.
Silly. Fellow gamers played a much greater part in the shortage. The 6% of miners should be blaming the other 94% for the graphics card shortage; not the other way around.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/03/01 08:06:02
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panzlock
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 08:24:43
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ty_ger07
Junkogen Putting up those numbers, why even make cards for gaming anymore? I'm surprised they don't just make specialized mining cards which can also sometimes game.
3 million graphics cards was only approximately 6% of the total graphics card sales of 2017.
On the other hand, gaming, productivity, and mixed use accounted for 94% of 2017 graphics card sales.
So, what do you think? Is your bigger market 6% or 94%?
Thank you for putting this in perspective for the average gamer. We're getting gouged by VGA manufacturers, pure and simple. This has NOTHING to do with realistic demand. They tell you there's a shortage, someone else gives you a reason and you buy it. It's called gullibility. Over the years companies such as AMD and Nvidia have learned what consumers are willing to pay for products, as have any vendors who sell their products to the public. That being said, the consumer is partially to blame for price increases because no matter what the cost some people MUST have what they desire. Why do you think Nvidia set MSRP on the Titan V at $3000? Why do you think AMD released Vega at $399 and $499 respectively then subsequently raised prices upon release? Because they CAN. Short of some complaining and verbal disdain on forums ultimately the consumers desire to obtain the next best thing will overpower reason and logic. You can moan about the inconvenience of having to take a leak but eventually you will always find yourself in the bathroom. Complaining about 3 million (6%) of the market. Welcome to humanity. You people need to get laid.
post edited by rjohnson11 - 2018/03/01 12:53:12
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 08:46:17
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How do they prove exactly who purchased a card for mining and who purchased them for gaming?
Obviously with mining, thy could account for the cards per client for a tota number, but how about for gaming? Many gamers have multiple accounts, especially when they are a family using one computer for everyone... so, one family with one computer containing one card counts as four cards? One miner has one client accounting for 4 cards, that is easy.
Can some break down Barney style where the true numbers are coming from and how they are so defined by Ty_gers claims and Rj’s claims per the articles listed?
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 09:13:52
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seth89 https://www.anandtech.com...s-card-shipment-report
I guess AMD is doing well with this, their share is up ~33%. This goes back to my theory that Vega is a compute card with a gaming logo on it.
discrete market Shipment is not the same as discrete market share for Video cards both intel and NVIdia increased GPU for sales consumer gamers and regular users(AMD lost market share) - like business and avg households which means AMD sold more cards to mining then to household or business You Cannot base your business on one market and thats what AMD has done here they have to do better competing against both Intel and Nvidia if you want to see change working with Intel to put your chips in intel might help gain some on the business front and low end consumer machines(igpu's)
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 09:49:34
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the_Scarlet_one How do they prove exactly who purchased a card for mining and who purchased them for gaming?
Obviously with mining, thy could account for the cards per client for a tota number, but how about for gaming? Many gamers have multiple accounts, especially when they are a family using one computer for everyone... so, one family with one computer containing one card counts as four cards? One miner has one client accounting for 4 cards, that is easy.
Can some break down Barney style where the true numbers are coming from and how they are so defined by Ty_gers claims and Rj’s claims per the articles listed?
It's based on a research group's findings. They do it for a living. Either you trust them or you don't. Exact numbers are impossible, but approximations can be close. They gather data from all sources that they can based on mining clients and the data collected by the services those clients connect to. Most popular mining client services gather and monitor things such as the behavior, performance, health, and duration of usage of each individual GPU on a per-user (or per-client) basis for both their general knowledge but also in order to offer the client performance and efficiency estimations and projections. After anonymising that data, the mining service can provide that data to the research group. If they can count approximately 6 million video cards of model number X through Y (2017 models or at least a close approximation) used constantly by a mining client during the period of the last Z number of days, they can easily define that as "solely used for mining" and thus don't have to worry about missing or double-counting those cards. Some will slip through the crack, but the majority should be accounted for. Total video card sales have been approximately 10 to 15 million per quarter. Again, an approximation. The final result is approximately 6% solely used for mining and 94% for other (gaming, workstation, production, mixed use [possibly mining part-time], etc.).
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/03/01 10:10:28
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panzlock
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 10:27:09
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Xavier Zepherious discrete market Shipment is not the same as discrete market share for Video cards both intel and NVIdia increased GPU for sales consumer gamers and regular users(AMD lost market share) - like business and avg households which means AMD sold more cards to mining then to household or business You Cannot base your business on one market and thats what AMD has done here they have to do better competing against both Intel and Nvidia if you want to see change working with Intel to put your chips in intel might help gain some on the business front and low end consumer machines(igpu's)
Doubt they based their GPU business solely on the cryptocurrency market. Mind you it is working out for them for the time being. And in time AMD should become more competitive with Nvidia. Vega isn't as bad as people make it out to be and both Vega AND Polaris are good for mining.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 10:46:30
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ty_ger07 It's based on a research group's findings. They do it for a living. Either you trust them or you don't. Exact numbers are impossible, but approximations can be close.
They gather data from all sources that they can based on mining clients and the data collected by the services those clients connect to. Most popular mining client services gather and monitor things such as the behavior, performance, health, and duration of usage of each individual GPU on a per-user (or per-client) basis for both their general knowledge but also in order to offer the client performance and efficiency estimations and projections. After anonymising that data, the mining service can provide that data to the research group. If they can count approximately 6 million video cards of model number X through Y (2017 models or at least a close approximation) used constantly by a mining client during the period of the last Z number of days, they can easily define that as "solely used for mining" and thus don't have to worry about missing or double-counting those cards. Some will slip through the crack, but the majority should be accounted for.
Total video card sales have been approximately 10 to 15 million per quarter. Again, an approximation.
The final result is approximately 6% solely used for mining and 94% for other (gaming, workstation, production, mixed use [possibly mining part-time], etc.).
So, for clarification, quadro’s, Tesla’s, FirePro, and all other on gaming gpu’s are including in this number. But their total are added to the gaming versus mining numbers. Since most production cards are significantly priced out of the range and functionality of the normal user, like the $7000 and $1000 quadrillion and Tesla cards, is there a way to remove them from the equation? I ask because the article specifically states “AIB” gpu’s. That didn’t seem to include the non AIB variants per the article. Miners don’t buy the production or deep learning cards typically, aside from the Titan V (some do though, because reasons and things). Next, how many of the “total gpu’s sold” were resale’s, where they were sold more than once? How many were in the functionality range (1060-Titan Xp) that was affected? The 1050 price was largely unaffected through the craze while the 1060-Titan Xp prices were greatly affected. Once you reduce the affected fields to match the affected crowd, I bet the percentages level out a little more. I know of quite a few people that picked up 1050 and 1050ti’s strictly because they couldn’t get a 1060 for a decent price, and miners don’t tend to favor those. Lastly, what about previous/EOL cards that were purchased? Were they included in your percentages? I would think, again, reducing the affected range of card sales to the affective topic would make the numbers more reasonable overall. 6 million doesn’t sound like a lot, but I am also betting many clients don’t report that information since everyone lost their minds about data farming when windows 10 wanted to know which GPU’s people used.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 11:56:44
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I don't have the answers. Like I said, they are the experts on the matter. I only offered my opinion/speculation on how the numbers can be contrived. Believe them or don't. All I can say is that those are the numbers I read from the information available without buying the report personally. It would be better for you to ask them directly.
6 million? You mean 3 million?
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fearpoint
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 12:45:53
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Speculators gonna speculate! Seriously though, I can't wait for the fad to die.
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rjohnson11
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 12:55:04
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By the way everyone please watch the language in this thread. Swearing and cursing aren't allowed even if caught by the forum filters. Posts containing such language will be edited or deleted.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 14:25:15
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ty_ger07 I don't have the answers. Like I said, they are the experts on the matter. I only offered my opinion/speculation on how the numbers can be contrived. Believe them or don't. All I can say is that those are the numbers I read from the information available without buying the report personally. It would be better for you to ask them directly.
6 million? You mean 3 million?
Definitely meant 3 million. Sorry about that. As for the answers, let’s not forget, Xbox and PlayStation uses a GPU, as well as laptops and such... a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If we look at strictly discrete gpu in the exact range that miners would utilize, I bet the numbers change drastically. That’s just my opinion, but I see people trying to justify that miners aren’t making that big of a difference... they are making a big difference now, just like they did in 2013/2014. How big is a different story, but I doubt the nerds doing the research took the time to break everything you described down to the level needed to get true numbers, or even close, for how miners truly affect the market. They state big picture numbers and I don’t feel that is enough.
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dmleet
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/01 16:54:26
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That's.... not as many as I thought....
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 07:07:22
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the_Scarlet_one
ty_ger07 I don't have the answers. Like I said, they are the experts on the matter. I only offered my opinion/speculation on how the numbers can be contrived. Believe them or don't. All I can say is that those are the numbers I read from the information available without buying the report personally. It would be better for you to ask them directly.
6 million? You mean 3 million?
Definitely meant 3 million. Sorry about that.
As for the answers, let’s not forget, Xbox and PlayStation uses a GPU, as well as laptops and such... a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If we look at strictly discrete gpu in the exact range that miners would utilize, I bet the numbers change drastically. That’s just my opinion, but I see people trying to justify that miners aren’t making that big of a difference... they are making a big difference now, just like they did in 2013/2014. How big is a different story, but I doubt the nerds doing the research took the time to break everything you described down to the level needed to get true numbers, or even close, for how miners truly affect the market. They state big picture numbers and I don’t feel that is enough.
It costs $5000 to purchase and read this 82-page report. I would hope that it is quite accurate, has well-explained methodology, and that they came up with way better ways to validate their data than the ideas I came up with.
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lehpron
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 08:00:51
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Have any of thought about the possibility that this article is just a lie? We have growth numbers, we have known surge in demand, but no direct correlation. Retailers with purchase limits can't tell what their purchases are used for, so how is anyone so certain that the 3 million sold were solely due to mining, forget the idea that the shortage is due to mining? The article uses coincidence and resentment towards mining to invent fake news that many of you don't question, you just accept what you're told.
post edited by lehpron - 2018/03/02 09:19:59
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 10:30:03
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ty_ger07 It costs $5000 to purchase and read this 82-page report. I would hope that it is quite accurate, has well-explained methodology, and that they came up with way better ways to validate their data than the ideas I came up with.
They charge for the report... yeah, mmkay. If they are paid to gather the information, that’s one thing. I am guessing they aren’t making this report available to the public. Maybe they could release this to the public and let the true numbers come out.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 10:50:49
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the_Scarlet_one
ty_ger07 It costs $5000 to purchase and read this 82-page report. I would hope that it is quite accurate, has well-explained methodology, and that they came up with way better ways to validate their data than the ideas I came up with.
They charge for the report... yeah, mmkay. If they are paid to gather the information, that’s one thing. I am guessing they aren’t making this report available to the public. Maybe they could release this to the public and let the true numbers come out.
It's their job to make money. Like I said, it's their business. It's not their job to prove specifically how mining is affecting video card availability nor provide their data/proof for free. Their data was purchased by the editorial, and now that editorial is reporting the above based on the data they found relevant to their article. I don't understand the confusion. I assumed that you read the article, source, and viewed the table of contents and summary that is available for free as well as the order button and price tag of the full report. If you don't trust the source nor the editorial, what more is there to say?
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/03/02 10:53:01
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ILikeBeans
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 16:20:16
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Xavier Zepherious
seth89 https://www.anandtech.com...s-card-shipment-report
I guess AMD is doing well with this, their share is up ~33%. This goes back to my theory that Vega is a compute card with a gaming logo on it.
discrete market Shipment is not the same as discrete market share for Video cards both intel and NVIdia increased GPU for sales consumer gamers and regular users(AMD lost market share) - like business and avg households which means AMD sold more cards to mining then to household or business You Cannot base your business on one market and thats what AMD has done here they have to do better competing against both Intel and Nvidia if you want to see change working with Intel to put your chips in intel might help gain some on the business front and low end consumer machines(igpu's)
Yah, 2017 was a stellar year for NVDA at the market, and apparently like most investors, I think AMD is at a higher risk (They need all the help they can get from crypto miners... in the long term).
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 16:59:31
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ty_ger07 It's their job to make money. Like I said, it's their business. It's not their job to prove specifically how mining is affecting video card availability nor provide their data/proof for free. Their data was purchased by the editorial, and now that editorial is reporting the above based on the data they found relevant to their article. I don't understand the confusion. I assumed that you read the article, source, and viewed the table of contents and summary that is available for free as well as the order button and price tag of the full report.
If you don't trust the source nor the editorial, what more is there to say?
I never questioned the article. I am actually emailing my questions directly to them, as I am just curious and wonder if they will provide any clarification. My curiosity piqued because of this statement: "The final result is approximately 6% solely used for mining and 94% for other (gaming, workstation, production, mixed use [possibly mining part-time], etc.)." The final result is approximately 6% solely used for mining.. ok, so if someone uses one of their rigs once for a game, or benchmarking, or any other thing in the world, it no longer counts even if it is dedicated to mining after that one use to test it. also, 10-15 million is a very wide approximation for total sales as well. if it is bad that someone is curious, then why is this research even done? I would think someone else was curious and did the research. It does not cost $5000 to purchase and read the report, it costs $5000 for a yearly subscription, or you can buy one 82 page report for $2500. With the $5000 subscription, there are also incentives. Pricing and Availability The Jon Peddie Research's Market Watch is available now in both electronic and hard copy editions, and sells for $2,500. Included with this report is an Excel workbook with the data used to create the charts, the charts themselves, and supplemental information. The annual subscription price for JPR's Market Watch is $5,000 and includes four quarterly issues. Full subscribers to JPR services receive Tech Watch (the company's bi-weekly report) and a copy of Market Watch as part of their subscription. Believe it or not, I am still curious and still question the numbers, since it is obvious many of them get bundled at some point and have at least a minor affect of the percentages. Like I stated as well, I will talk to the source and see if maybe they can provide clarifications as my curiosity won't stop just because someone doesn't want to be curious how the numbers are compiled. Thank you for the conversation, and if I hear anything back from them, I will share it.
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DooDoo44
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 17:09:51
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Wow, that's pretty bad news for the average consumer gamer, I saw on the news that these guys are settling in the cold Canada and iceland taking advantage of the cold climate and the lower electric supply costs and mining the heck out of the interweb so the wait will be darn long I guess for the graphic cards prices to drop , really been eyeing those feature loaded EVGA 1080ti but their market prices are through the roof at the moment
post edited by DooDoo44 - 2018/03/02 17:20:43
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HeavyHemi
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 17:14:50
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lehpron Have any of thought about the possibility that this article is just a lie? We have growth numbers, we have known surge in demand, but no direct correlation. Retailers with purchase limits can't tell what their purchases are used for, so how is anyone so certain that the 3 million sold were solely due to mining, forget the idea that the shortage is due to mining? The article uses coincidence and resentment towards mining to invent fake news that many of you don't question, you just accept what you're told.
I'm quite sure others have thought of it. In regards to your thoughts do you have any evidence this is 'fake news' beyond what you've thought? I agree to some extent with your critique of the accuracy of the numbers derived. Nvidia and AMD and other have reported estimates for the numbers for mining sales. It is certain that mining sales have impacted availability. The quibbling is over how much. It doesn't take much, percentage wise in unanticipated demand, to cause shortages, especially seasonal. I'm not quite sure why you're so aggressive against it being a contributor...do you mine?
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SirJamesDTech
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 18:35:29
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Graphics card manufacturers should not just be doing Scrooge McDuck diving board leaps into waves of gold right now. Plenty of people who had the bug to get into building their own systems are turning apathetic and buying consoles because the cost involved is too great currently. Here's to hoping a mining card line is in the near future so within a year we can have our GPUs back, at least Pascals, at a reasonable price.
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ILikeBeans
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 19:05:07
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SirJamesDTech Graphics card manufacturers should not just be doing Scrooge McDuck diving board leaps into waves of gold right now. Plenty of people who had the bug to get into building their own systems are turning apathetic and buying consoles because the cost involved is too great currently. Here's to hoping a mining card line is in the near future so within a year we can have our GPUs back, at least Pascals, at a reasonable price.
Manufacturers are not capitalizing on the price gouging, it's the re-sellers. Manufacturers can create a shortage any time at there own will, but that isn't in their best interest. They make money on selling product at a price that keeps the industry thriving, so manufacturers are actually hurting because of the shortage. In other words, it's not about how much money they have made to them as it is how much money they could be making still yet... if they had product.
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SirJamesDTech
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 19:17:03
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That's a fair point. Overall it's a fine line though as demand for these cards is probably not going to diminish for awhile while at the same time interest in getting into custom building for an increasing number of people is waning. I just see a board like the B250 Mining which can support that many GPUs and think it's a Frankenstein and we're just about through the looking glass, so hopefully the next card generation simmers things a bit.
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ILikeBeans
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/02 20:44:30
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SirJamesDTech That's a fair point. Overall it's a fine line though as demand for these cards is probably not going to diminish for awhile while at the same time interest in getting into custom building for an increasing number of people is waning. I just see a board like the B250 Mining which can support that many GPUs and think it's a Frankenstein and we're just about through the looking glass, so hopefully the next card generation simmers things a bit.
Believe me, AMD and Nvidia want product on the shelf. It's what is healthy for the industry. Which is why I have a hard time believing crypto mining is the "BIG" problem. I would think it fairly easy to see the demand coming way earlier, like when mining was much more profitable. I mean these big crypto farms aren't that new. I think the bigger problem is production cost ATM. These companies have very good reasons for setting the prices they currently have, they don't want to raise them for a relatively short term problem. They want to stay optimally priced for the market as well as their own profitability, but this can be a problem. It's like if the moon were made out of diamonds. It's valuable and in demand. The problem is going there and bringing them back is still cost prohibitive. The market couldn't support the price needed for a profit. That's the "fine line" they don't want to cross.
post edited by ILikeBeans - 2018/03/02 20:46:39
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