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Hot!AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years

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rjohnson11
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2019/07/08 09:17:46 (permalink)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-leapfrogs-nvidia-first-time-123000900.html
 
Tom's Hardware found that the RX 5700 produced 11% higher frame rates, averaged across its benchmark suite, than the RTX 2060. Had AMD kept its original pricing, the comparison would have been muddled by a higher price. But with both cards now priced the same, AMD's entry clearly comes out on top.
The RX 5700 XT also bests its competition, beating the RTX 2060 SUPER by 9.9% on average. It even comes close to the performance of NVIDIA's $499 RTX 2070 SUPER, which beats AMD's card by just 6.9% despite costing 25% more.
 
I don't know if I completely agree with the writer of the article but the competition from AMD did force NVIDIA to lower their prices, so fans of both AMD and NVIDIA will benefit in my personal opinion. 
 


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    -Jinky-
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 10:03:14 (permalink)
    I'll expect to see a reply to this soon stating " but they don't do ray tracing"

    It always seems to pop up after anything positive gets posted for AMD GPUs.
    post edited by -Jinky- - 2019/07/08 10:43:42
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    Oniumicus
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 10:08:37 (permalink)
    Something that will be a big focus for me is the 5700xt AIBs between thermal/cooling, performance, and price. Consumers will have to wait till August for the AIBs on 5700xt. However, rumors are that 2070 Super AIBs come out tomorrow. I know I'm personally looking for the benchmarks between the AIBs of 5700xt and 2070 Super. I was fully expecting to buy the 2070 Super but now I'm tempted to wait and see what has a better outcome with all the different variables. 
    #3
    rjohnson11
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 10:23:59 (permalink)
    AMD recently made a patent for ray tracing so I believe they want to do ray tracing in a different way. 

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    #4
    -Jinky-
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 10:47:52 (permalink)
    rjohnson11
    AMD recently made a patent for ray tracing so I believe they want to do ray tracing in a different way. 




    I believed theirs was going to be a hybrid setup using software and hardware. I also believe AMD can get more out of Navi and we'll see a more powerful variant in the future. 
    #5
    ty_ger07
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 11:11:45 (permalink)
    In before the Hoggle ray tracing comment.

    Besides ray tracing being largely irrelevant at the moment, AMD's competing NVIDIA card is basically useless at ray tracing, so I wish that argument could finally be put to rest.

    Anyway, using the DirectX DXR API which basically every (handfull) of ray tracing games currently uses, the AMD cards can also do ray tracing. It isn't "software ray tracing" either. Just because it doesn't use dedicated ray tracing hardware doesn't make it software ray tracing. Just like ray tracing on NVIDIA 1000 series cards isn't software ray tracing. It's a DXR implementation using GPU compute cores which are physical hardware items, therefore "hardware" ray tracing. Just slower hardware ray tracing.

    AMD has some good bang for buck. Too bad their coolers aren't that good. The AIB cards should run cooler and quieter.

    And the price? After it was "dropped", the price is right in line with the rumors we heard months ago. AMD should be proud.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2019/07/08 11:20:16

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    Miguell
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 11:23:23 (permalink)
    finally some good news!
    hope amd steps up its game and forces nvidia to practice decent pricing.

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    Viper453
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 15:44:07 (permalink)
     Yeah the 5700 and 5700xt are for real. 
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz47WqRDDK4
    post edited by Viper453 - 2019/07/08 15:48:04

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    vegajf51
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 16:26:25 (permalink)
    I heard a rumor that AMD is looking into doing ray tracing via addon chiplet. Basically a separate die chiplet with ray tracing cores that is just an add on to a future Navi GPU. This may possibly be how the upcoming consoles have Ray tracing.... The person that told me this though is a bit of an AMD fanboy but does have some reasonable inside info sometimes, so I consider this a very sketchy but totally possible rumor.
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    atfrico
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 17:51:21 (permalink)
    Great news indeed. GIF below describes my reaction
     


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    atfrico
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 17:52:58 (permalink)
    vegajf51
    I heard a rumor that AMD is looking into doing ray tracing via addon chiplet. Basically a separate die chiplet with ray tracing cores that is just an add on to a future Navi GPU. This may possibly be how the upcoming consoles have Ray tracing.... The person that told me this though is a bit of an AMD fanboy but does have some reasonable inside info sometimes, so I consider this a very sketchy but totally possible rumor.


    oh really? I called that long time ago. It appears someone took my suggestion about a separate chip focusing Ray tracing very serious.

    Those who abuse power, are nothing but scumbags!
     The challenge of power is how to use it and not abuse it. When you abuse it, it reverses on you and it hurts you.The abuse of power that seems to create the most unhappiness is when a person uses personal power to get ahead without regards to the welfare of others, people are obsessed with it. You can take a nice person and turn them into a slob, into an insane being, craving power, destroying anything that stands in their way.
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    vegajf51
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 18:21:31 (permalink)
    atfrico
    vegajf51
    I heard a rumor that AMD is looking into doing ray tracing via addon chiplet. Basically a separate die chiplet with ray tracing cores that is just an add on to a future Navi GPU. This may possibly be how the upcoming consoles have Ray tracing.... The person that told me this though is a bit of an AMD fanboy but does have some reasonable inside info sometimes, so I consider this a very sketchy but totally possible rumor.


    oh really? I called that long time ago. It appears someone took my suggestion about a separate chip focusing Ray tracing very serious.


    If it comes true maybe you can get some royalty $$$ out of AMD for the idea :-p
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    atfrico
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 18:29:07 (permalink)
    vegajf51
    atfrico
    vegajf51
    I heard a rumor that AMD is looking into doing ray tracing via addon chiplet. Basically a separate die chiplet with ray tracing cores that is just an add on to a future Navi GPU. This may possibly be how the upcoming consoles have Ray tracing.... The person that told me this though is a bit of an AMD fanboy but does have some reasonable inside info sometimes, so I consider this a very sketchy but totally possible rumor.


    oh really? I called that long time ago. It appears someone took my suggestion about a separate chip focusing Ray tracing very serious.


    If it comes true maybe you can get some royalty $$$ out of AMD for the idea :-p


    Hmmm...

    I am listening grasshopper

    Those who abuse power, are nothing but scumbags!
     The challenge of power is how to use it and not abuse it. When you abuse it, it reverses on you and it hurts you.The abuse of power that seems to create the most unhappiness is when a person uses personal power to get ahead without regards to the welfare of others, people are obsessed with it. You can take a nice person and turn them into a slob, into an insane being, craving power, destroying anything that stands in their way.
    #13
    MasterMiner
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 19:10:24 (permalink)
    AMD has been competing in the middle tier cards for a while. “Ray Tracing” is yet another math co-processor.

    It’s at the extreme end where they lag significantly behind Nvidia.

    I used to mine. Now I compute.
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    ty_ger07
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 19:32:37 (permalink)

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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 19:34:03 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    rjohnson11
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-leapfrogs-nvidia-first-time-123000900.html
     




    Where's the dent?




    That's a 5700, it doesn't have the dent. Only the 5700XT has the dent... it cost extra :-p
    #16
    Hoggle
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/08 20:26:16 (permalink)
    -Jinky-
    I'll expect to see a reply to this soon stating " but they don't do ray tracing"

    It always seems to pop up after anything positive gets posted for AMD GPUs.


    I think AMD needs to at least announce software support for it as a feature. With Microsoft and Sony next console supporting it you do run time risk of publishers only creating a game with ray traced lighting. It’s a very real possibility since it would take a lot of extra cost to make the game have a legacy lighting system just for PC gamers who lack a card with the feature. Of course AMD could take away that as a complaint just with software support or as said a hardware card just to process the lighting.
     
    I am not anti AMD in anyway but more of afraid people could find games that require a feature that they just for some reason don't have support for and that could cut the life of a card short. I also know publishers are going to be looking at NVIDIA cards supporting the feature for over 2 years when the next generation of consoles show up and AMD having a small market share. So they will have to figure if it's worth adding legacy support for that lighting. A lot of publishers want to make as much as possible and will just not support the development of a lighting system just for a small percentage of gamers.
    post edited by Hoggle - 2019/07/08 22:53:31

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    kevinc313
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 11:13:56 (permalink)
    I'd get excited if AMD could strap 2 Navi processors to one card and get them to play well in parallel.  For $800.
    #18
    Xavier Zepherious
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 11:39:42 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    In before the Hoggle ray tracing comment.

    Besides ray tracing being largely irrelevant at the moment, AMD's competing NVIDIA card is basically useless at ray tracing, so I wish that argument could finally be put to rest.

    Anyway, using the DirectX DXR API which basically every (handfull) of ray tracing games currently uses, the AMD cards can also do ray tracing. It isn't "software ray tracing" either. Just because it doesn't use dedicated ray tracing hardware doesn't make it software ray tracing. Just like ray tracing on NVIDIA 1000 series cards isn't software ray tracing. It's a DXR implementation using GPU compute cores which are physical hardware items, therefore "hardware" ray tracing. Just slower hardware ray tracing.

    AMD has some good bang for buck. Too bad their coolers aren't that good. The AIB cards should run cooler and quieter.

    And the price? After it was "dropped", the price is right in line with the rumors we heard months ago. AMD should be proud.



     
     
    any RT implementation via DXR is done one of three ways ( but i suppose if you want could use all 3)
     
    GPU RT cores (VIA MICROSOFT DXR and Detection  for RT CARD - DXR calls made through Video cards software and hardware implementation) - best way
    or
     
    CPU cuda cores(Via M$ DXR and detection of Nvidia pascal or newer graphic card- DXR calls made thru cuda core with software from Nvidia) - 2nd best way but a major performance hit of the graphic card
    or
    CPU cores(VIA microsoft DXR- where the RT are done through M$ software and use of CPU cycles and cores to complete RT traces- resulting in less FPS and performance) - worst way - and gawd awful performance hit
    (generally you need a lot of cpu cores for this)
     
    it would be nice to have use of 2 or all 3 but how do you implement what does what??? (do i hold up frames because we are waiting for CPU??? or cuda cores)- that is the confusing part - to minimize performance hit - maybe down the road???
     
     
     
    currently there is NO AMD RT implementation so they would rely on M$ implementation ONLY - which is why it is sucky and a performance HIT
     
     
    Considering i just viewed the path NVidia wishes to take and the future going from RT to path tracing - computer graphics are going to change quite a bit in the next few years to get us to more realistic and higher resolutions and more life like
    this will eventually lead to not needing actors for movies because everything can be rendered and voiced by AI
    same for games
     
    and it was though you were in a real movie or real life scene
     
    Exascale is driving it all - trying to double the performance of cards every generation
     
     
    MY take Nvidia leap frogged AMD not the other way around
    Only thing AMD has is a shrink to make them competitive- just wait til Nvidia bring out 7nm - all i can see is Nvidia leaving behind AMD in a dust trail
     
    nvidia is still on 14nm FF and s able to outperform AMD even with AMD having the 7nm shrink with it's performance boost benefits and Nvidia providing RT benefits to boot
     
    post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2019/07/09 11:54:09

     
       


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    #19
    ty_ger07
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 12:25:40 (permalink)
    AMD's card outperforms NVIDIA's competing card at a cheaper price.

    When AMD thinks RT is relevant, it will be able to implement "method 2" using GPU cores with its existing card. Or "method 1" with a future product.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2019/07/09 12:29:44

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    GTXJackBauer
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 15:26:16 (permalink)
    Xavier Zepherious
     
    any RT implementation via DXR is done one of three ways ( but i suppose if you want could use all 3)
     
    GPU RT cores (VIA MICROSOFT DXR and Detection  for RT CARD - DXR calls made through Video cards software and hardware implementation) - best way
    or
     
    CPU cuda cores(Via M$ DXR and detection of Nvidia pascal or newer graphic card- DXR calls made thru cuda core with software from Nvidia) - 2nd best way but a major performance hit of the graphic card
    or
    CPU cores(VIA microsoft DXR- where the RT are done through M$ software and use of CPU cycles and cores to complete RT traces- resulting in less FPS and performance) - worst way - and gawd awful performance hit
    (generally you need a lot of cpu cores for this)
     
    it would be nice to have use of 2 or all 3 but how do you implement what does what??? (do i hold up frames because we are waiting for CPU??? or cuda cores)- that is the confusing part - to minimize performance hit - maybe down the road???
     
    currently there is NO AMD RT implementation so they would rely on M$ implementation ONLY - which is why it is sucky and a performance HIT
     
    Considering i just viewed the path NVidia wishes to take and the future going from RT to path tracing - computer graphics are going to change quite a bit in the next few years to get us to more realistic and higher resolutions and more life like
    this will eventually lead to not needing actors for movies because everything can be rendered and voiced by AI
    same for games
     
    and it was though you were in a real movie or real life scene
     
    Exascale is driving it all - trying to double the performance of cards every generation
     
    MY take Nvidia leap frogged AMD not the other way around
    Only thing AMD has is a shrink to make them competitive- just wait til Nvidia bring out 7nm - all i can see is Nvidia leaving behind AMD in a dust trail
     
    nvidia is still on 14nm FF and s able to outperform AMD even with AMD having the 7nm shrink with it's performance boost benefits and Nvidia providing RT benefits to boot
     




    +1  Well said all around m8.
     
    I agree, both Intel and Nvidia show they can still trade blows and still compete against AMD's 7mm.  Imagine if they were both at the same start line if you will  but don't tell no one cause they might get upset.  

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    #21
    transdogmifier
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 16:39:30 (permalink)
    Cool....but I'll still never buy an AMD GPU...
     
    Glad they're going to push NV tho.
     

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    seth89
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 19:09:36 (permalink)
    I’m not buying the “Nvidia Cards are future proof and AMD cards are not.”.
    Navi and Zen are in Xbox and PS5... aren't all games really built around that?


    #23
    vegajf51
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 19:27:31 (permalink)
    AMD stated that Navi is equivalent to their Zen 1 launch on the CPU side. It's a total reset and start over with an aggressive upcoming road map that will eventually take AMD back to the top. This is AMD's words so time will tell, but Navi does seem to be a step in the right direction. With consoles and even mobile devices using RDNA acrch they do appear to have some confidence in it. Nvidia isn't sitting still either though and unlike Intel AMD uses the exact same process as Nvidia so it literally comes down to just arch and drivers, stuff Nvidia is very good at.
    post edited by vegajf51 - 2019/07/09 19:29:57
    #24
    Hoggle
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/09 23:48:34 (permalink)
    seth89
    I’m not buying the “Nvidia Cards are future proof and AMD cards are not.”.
    Navi and Zen are in Xbox and PS5... aren't all games really built around that?



     
     
    The fact that AMD is being used in the PS5 and next Xbox and will have ray tracing.  This is Sony and Microsoft saying the AMD GPU that will support ray tracing is like 16 months away from being in consoles. It's totally reasonable to think they could use a GPU like that in a PC within the next 16 months. So don't think it's about NVIDIA being great because it does ray tracing but more of knowing that the next generation AMD card isn't going to be that far off and it might be worth waiting.

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    #25
    JPSHRACER1486
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/10 08:56:02 (permalink)
    AMD beat Nvidia to Peripheral Component Interconnect 4.0 version. Nvidia GeForce 20 series Super are still using PCIe 3.0 version. There is still headroom in the performance that PCIe 4.0 is not needed yet. However, I would still rather be on the newer version if it does not cost more. Although, I would not switch from Nvidia GeForce graphics cards. AMD VIII is going to give Nvidia a run for their money. More competition and hopefully lower prices in the future.
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    veganfanatic
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/10 09:42:48 (permalink)
    Given that Physx is now open source, it makes more sense to have some logic to perk it up. Ray tracing is computationally demanding so when Crytek made that ray traced demo on a Vega 56 it shows that dedicated logic is not needed.
     
    So instead of just on monolithic chunk of silicon it makes sense to have separate coprocessors for some specializations. This would also better for thermal management as having 64 to 72 GPU compute units is already a lot of power.
     


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    #27
    -Jinky-
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/10 13:10:08 (permalink)
    Hoggle
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    I'll expect to see a reply to this soon stating " but they don't do ray tracing"

    It always seems to pop up after anything positive gets posted for AMD GPUs.


    I think AMD needs to at least announce software support for it as a feature. With Microsoft and Sony next console supporting it you do run time risk of publishers only creating a game with ray traced lighting. It’s a very real possibility since it would take a lot of extra cost to make the game have a legacy lighting system just for PC gamers who lack a card with the feature. Of course AMD could take away that as a complaint just with software support or as said a hardware card just to process the lighting.
     
    I am not anti AMD in anyway but more of afraid people could find games that require a feature that they just for some reason don't have support for and that could cut the life of a card short. I also know publishers are going to be looking at NVIDIA cards supporting the feature for over 2 years when the next generation of consoles show up and AMD having a small market share. So they will have to figure if it's worth adding legacy support for that lighting. A lot of publishers want to make as much as possible and will just not support the development of a lighting system just for a small percentage of gamers.




    I wasn't singling you out by any means. I apologize if you thought that was the case. I just know that when AMD GPU topics get posted there is always a no RT comment. I don't even remember by who or anything. 
     
    As far as AMD and future RT capabilities, I think it would be foolish to think they don't already have something planned. If they are going to be using it on next gen consoles then they must already have plans for PC. I might be wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if they had a Navi based RT card early next year ( however they end up implementing it ).
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    veganfanatic
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/10 13:13:00 (permalink)
    DX12 has the DXR API which is what Windows 10 offers for DirectX
     
    nVidia wants to swerve but AMD has not done that
     
    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/announcing-microsoft-directx-raytracing/


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    ty_ger07
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    Re: AMD Leapfrogs NVIDIA for the First Time in Years 2019/07/10 15:00:24 (permalink)
    From the link above:
    A secondary reason, however, is that representing DXR as a compute-like workload is aligned to what we see as the future of graphics, namely that hardware will be increasingly general-purpose, and eventually most fixed-function units will be replaced by HLSL code.

    Amen.

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    Disclaimer: I own shares of AMD, Intel, and NVIDIA stock.
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