mazeroth
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From the looks of both products, the only thing I can see that's different is the Ultra has a slightly higher clock speed. Both seem to have the same 450w power spec. I know the 3090 had an XC3 version and an FTW3 version, which had different heatsinks and BIOSes, but these 3090 Ti's seem to be the same. Why then is there a $200 price difference?
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ADANDC650
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 10:56:33
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Only difference seems to be the higher clock on the Ultra. Same coolers.
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 11:05:50
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justin_43
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 12:37:49
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mazeroth From the looks of both products, the only thing I can see that's different is the Ultra has a slightly higher clock speed. Both seem to have the same 450w power spec. I know the 3090 had an XC3 version and an FTW3 version, which had different heatsinks and BIOSes, but these 3090 Ti's seem to be the same. Why then is there a $200 price difference?
There is no difference other than out of the box clock speed. You can easily overclock either using software. The chips are not binned. It's all silicon lottery if you get a good overclocker or not. If you can get the black you would be saving yourself $200. The biggest difference will be how many they stock. There will likely be way more ultras for sale.
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 12:46:16
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justin_43
mazeroth From the looks of both products, the only thing I can see that's different is the Ultra has a slightly higher clock speed. Both seem to have the same 450w power spec. I know the 3090 had an XC3 version and an FTW3 version, which had different heatsinks and BIOSes, but these 3090 Ti's seem to be the same. Why then is there a $200 price difference?
There is no difference other than out of the box clock speed. You can easily overclock either using software. The chips are not binned. It's all silicon lottery if you get a good overclocker or not. If you can get the black you would be saving yourself $200. The biggest difference will be how many they stock. There will likely be way more ultras for sale.
Jacob even said they were binned very closely with this launch in the latest GN video.
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Sajin
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 12:51:18
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They aren’t binned the way you think they are. They are binned for out of box clock speed.
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justin_43
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 12:58:02
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tresnugget Jacob even said they were binned very closely with this launch in the latest GN video.
Sajin They aren’t binned the way you think they are. They are binned for out of box clock speed.
Exactly. Only binned as far as they hit the minimum clock. They don't test all chips for a top clock speed, only that they can hit the minimum for whatever card. And spoiler alert, almost all chips can hit 1920Mhz no problem. There are no "better chips" being put into ultras.
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 13:01:44
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Sajin They aren’t binned the way you think they are. They are binned for out of box clock speed.
Right. They probably don't even have drivers during the binning process. It's just testing frequency, voltage, and power scaling to see what sku it will be. That said, that can be an indicator of overclockability but it's not where near a certainty. I mean I've seen FTW3s that when overclocked on air pretty handily beat my hybrid KPE in PR, but that's certainly not the norm. Silicon lottery will always be there. I'm just saying there is a binning process, it's not purely random.
post edited by tresnugget - 2022/03/31 13:05:46
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Hoggle
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 13:15:02
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One thing to consider is EVGA will warranty the card to meet the specs that it is sold as. So the Ultra will at least hit the Ultra speed or be replaced. While you might be able to overclock a Black to Ultra speeds if it doesn’t stay stable the warranty will not cover the overclocked speed as long as is stable at Black speeds.
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justin_43
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 13:24:10
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Hoggle One thing to consider is EVGA will warranty the card to meet the specs that it is sold as. So the Ultra will at least hit the Ultra speed or be replaced. While you might be able to overclock a Black to Ultra speeds if it doesn’t stay stable the warranty will not cover the overclocked speed as long as is stable at Black speeds.
True, but how many blacks won't hit 1920Mhz? I doubt many, but you are right, that is the chance you take buying the black. I'll roll the dice to save $200. I've had good luck with black cards in the past, and before black was a thing I always bought reference cards. Maybe I was lucky but I never got any real duds. They all OCed well enough for me. Nothing crazy, I'm never trying to set records, but far beyond whatever the ultras for that generation boosted to.
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talon951
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 15:15:12
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tresnugget
Sajin They aren’t binned the way you think they are. They are binned for out of box clock speed.
Right. They probably don't even have drivers during the binning process. It's just testing frequency, voltage, and power scaling to see what sku it will be. That said, that can be an indicator of overclockability but it's not where near a certainty. I mean I've seen FTW3s that when overclocked on air pretty handily beat my hybrid KPE in PR, but that's certainly not the norm. Silicon lottery will always be there. I'm just saying there is a binning process, it's not purely random.
That makes no sense. If the power limit, VF curve, and cooling are the same then the clock speeds they hit will be exactly the same. One of those 3 things have to be different between the models.
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kram36
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 15:19:17
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Every EVGA 30 Series card I have laughs at the advertised boost clock. They will all boost past the advertise boost clock without any overclocking by me.
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talon951
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 15:29:38
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kram36 Every EVGA 30 Series card I have laughs at the advertised boost clock. They will all boost past the advertise boost clock without any overclocking by me.
The advertised boost clock is more of a minimum, not a maximum. I'm not sure how they standardize that though. Probably just typical gaming loads as torture tests like Kombustor can actually drive the card lower than the advertised boost.
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ADANDC650
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 15:40:27
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My 3090 Ti Black boosts to 2040Mhz using stock settings in X1. Pretty sure that's what the FTW3 Ultra boosts to as well out of the box. Quick note, I did flip the BIOS switch to OC.
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 16:01:21
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talon951
tresnugget
Sajin They aren’t binned the way you think they are. They are binned for out of box clock speed.
Right. They probably don't even have drivers during the binning process. It's just testing frequency, voltage, and power scaling to see what sku it will be. That said, that can be an indicator of overclockability but it's not where near a certainty. I mean I've seen FTW3s that when overclocked on air pretty handily beat my hybrid KPE in PR, but that's certainly not the norm. Silicon lottery will always be there. I'm just saying there is a binning process, it's not purely random.
That makes no sense. If the power limit, VF curve, and cooling are the same then the clock speeds they hit will be exactly the same. One of those 3 things have to be different between the models.
I'm saying that's what they're probably testing for and based off of the results they would be changing the v/f curve ie setting the final boost clock, fitting it in a different sku. Also no 2 GPUs are going to be exactly the same. Even 2 GPUs on the same vf curve with same cooling aren't going to be thermally identical or use the same amount of power and due to boost 3.0 one could boost slightly higher than the other with the same environmental conditions. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs other than what Ive seen on factory tour videos but Jacob said that all FTWs are binned not only for frequency but for thermal/power portfolio.
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Talon2020
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 16:39:17
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ADANDC650 My 3090 Ti Black boosts to 2040Mhz using stock settings in X1. Pretty sure that's what the FTW3 Ultra boosts to as well out of the box. Quick note, I did flip the BIOS switch to OC.
Nice! That is exactly what my Ultra card is holding under load at stock settings on the Perf switch. Mine came default at perf, no idea if this changes anything other than fan profiles. Curious what you can hold under load maxed out in something like Superposition or Port Royal?
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talon951
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 17:32:25
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tresnugget
I'm saying that's what they're probably testing for and based off of the results they would be changing the v/f curve ie setting the final boost clock, fitting it in a different sku. Also no 2 GPUs are going to be exactly the same. Even 2 GPUs on the same vf curve with same cooling aren't going to be thermally identical or use the same amount of power and due to boost 3.0 one could boost slightly higher than the other with the same environmental conditions. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs other than what Ive seen on factory tour videos but Jacob said that all FTWs are binned not only for frequency but for thermal/power portfolio.
Yea, that I agree with. Sorry if that's what you meant before. The VF curve being different is the only explanation I can think of if they have the same cooler and power limits. They're all 450/480w? I know they're all 450w base, but I haven't seen what the 2 lower end skus have for the max PL. Only the FTW3 Ultra bios is up so far on TPU.
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 17:59:14
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talon951
tresnugget
I'm saying that's what they're probably testing for and based off of the results they would be changing the v/f curve ie setting the final boost clock, fitting it in a different sku. Also no 2 GPUs are going to be exactly the same. Even 2 GPUs on the same vf curve with same cooling aren't going to be thermally identical or use the same amount of power and due to boost 3.0 one could boost slightly higher than the other with the same environmental conditions. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs other than what Ive seen on factory tour videos but Jacob said that all FTWs are binned not only for frequency but for thermal/power portfolio.
Yea, that I agree with. Sorry if that's what you meant before. The VF curve being different is the only explanation I can think of if they have the same cooler and power limits. They're all 450/480w? I know they're all 450w base, but I haven't seen what the 2 lower end skus have for the max PL. Only the FTW3 Ultra bios is up so far on TPU.
Yeah, that's all I'm saying. But even before power limits are even set the GPUs pulling less power at the same frequency would probably end up being the higher SKU. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a great chip for overclocking but if you sort them that way those will in all likelihood skew to being better overclockers than the ones that don't. I haven't seen the power limits for the Black or Gaming but I imagine they're the same. I don't think I've ever seen them different in the past.
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talon951
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 18:07:19
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tresnugget Yeah, that's all I'm saying. But even before power limits are even set the GPUs pulling less power at the same frequency would probably end up being the higher SKU. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a great chip for overclocking but if you sort them that way those will in all likelihood skew to being better overclockers than the ones that don't. I haven't seen the power limits for the Black or Gaming but I imagine they're the same. I don't think I've ever seen them different in the past.
Yea varying power leakage is a thing. DerBauer did a video of his binned 12900k. He demonstrates how his binned chip actually leaks more and uses more power. Oddly though, he said those are actually the good overclocking cpus. I don't have any idea if that carries over to gpus though.
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talon951
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 18:16:34
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tresnugget
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 18:33:07
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talon951
tresnugget Yeah, that's all I'm saying. But even before power limits are even set the GPUs pulling less power at the same frequency would probably end up being the higher SKU. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a great chip for overclocking but if you sort them that way those will in all likelihood skew to being better overclockers than the ones that don't. I haven't seen the power limits for the Black or Gaming but I imagine they're the same. I don't think I've ever seen them different in the past.
Yea varying power leakage is a thing. DerBauer did a video of his binned 12900k. He demonstrates how his binned chip actually leaks more and uses more power. Oddly though, he said those are actually the good overclocking cpus. I don't have any idea if that carries over to gpus though.
That's right, I forgot about that. That really surprised me.
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Iyatsu
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 20:31:27
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I qued for the gaming by accident not realizing it wasnt the ultra. Well the que popped and so i ordered it. Then i qued for the Ultra. Should i just keep the gaming or get the ultra when its que pops?
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kram36
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/03/31 20:54:53
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Iyatsu I qued for the gaming by accident not realizing it wasnt the ultra. Well the que popped and so i ordered it. Then i qued for the Ultra. Should i just keep the gaming or get the ultra when its que pops?
Keep the Gaming, you won't be able to tell the difference between the cards when gaming.
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ericc191
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 05:32:33
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So if I have the option to get the black or +$50 for the Ultra, I'm just throwing away 50 bucks?
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spartakrex
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:02:12
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ericc191 So if I have the option to get the black or +$50 for the Ultra, I'm just throwing away 50 bucks?
For only $50 given the overall price tag, why even ask? Get the Ultra. Those $50 will eat you alive wondering if the Ultra would have been worth it…
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ericc191
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:05:08
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Lol fair enough. I had posted in another thread that I have a guy wanting my FTW3 Hybrid 3090 +200 or +250 for his Black or Ultra.
I paid $1500 for the 3090 so.. I can't help but wonder will I be making a mistake anyways since the 40 series is coming
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spartakrex
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:24:38
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ericc191 Lol fair enough. I had posted in another thread that I have a guy wanting my FTW3 Hybrid 3090 +200 or +250 for his Black or Ultra.
I paid $1500 for the 3090 so.. I can't help but wonder will I be making a mistake anyways since the 40 series is coming
If all you have to do is give your 3090 hybrid + 250 to get a 3090 Ti Ultra, it should be a non-event. Absolutely get it. $1750 all-in for a 3090 Ti Ultra is a steal. I have it, tested it against the 3080Ti, 3090 Ultra, 3090 Strix. Hands down a better card. Also, not any worse (for my application) than the LC 3090Ti Strix I also have (just can’t fit vertically where I want it). I doubt you will regret making the trade.
post edited by spartakrex - 2022/05/21 18:45:19
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ericc191
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:26:51
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Sweet thank you for that bit of info!
One last question, have you noticed any coil whine on the 3090 Ti cards? I had an FE and Strix 3090 in the past and both sounded like a dying mouse 🐁 in my case during gaming.
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spartakrex
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:30:45
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ericc191 Sweet thank you for that bit of info!
One last question, have you noticed any coil whine on the 3090 Ti cards? I had an FE and Strix 3090 in the past and both sounded like a dying mouse 🐁 in my case during gaming.
None. I have had three 3090 Ti Ultras (have two now). Whisper quiet. Oh, I forget - also tested the 3090Ti FE going for 1999.99 MSRP. Inferior in every way (other than the looks, of course - it is a beauty).
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spartakrex
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Re: 3090 Ti Black vs Ultra?
2022/05/21 06:32:55
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spartakrex
ericc191 Sweet thank you for that bit of info!
One last question, have you noticed any coil whine on the 3090 Ti cards? I had an FE and Strix 3090 in the past and both sounded like a dying mouse 🐁 in my case during gaming.
None. I have had three 3090 Ti Ultras (have two now). Whisper quiet. Oh, I forget - also tested the 3090Ti FE going for 1999.99 MSRP. Inferior in every way (other than the looks, of course - it is a beauty).
Oh, one thing to keep in mind - the 3090Ti does not overclock as well as the 3090s. But it is already fast enough…
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