EVGA

Hot!30 series cards crashing in games?

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HawkOculus
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2020/09/25 05:39:37 (permalink)
I’ve heard murmurs of this issue right now. Most of the discussion is focused on actually getting a card. But this seems like an important topic:

https://www.igorslab.de/e...-rtx-3080-andrtx-3090/

I’ve just been doing a quick skim of this article, but has anyone seen any reports of EVGA cards with similar crashing problems? This seems isolated to the lower tier cards like the cheap Zotac models. However I haven’t seen many reports covering this issue.

Edit: can any of the EVGA techs here comment on whether or not certain EVGA models have the cheaper POSCAPs or MLCCs?
post edited by HawkOculus - 2020/09/25 05:46:03
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    torick
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 05:57:19 (permalink)
    I don't know if you are going to see any EVGA products with this issue yet. Most of their cards went to bots since they didn't have strong net security in place because they didn't believe their consumers about bots.  
    #2
    aka_STEVE_b
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 05:57:53 (permalink)

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    #3
    Andzx
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:04:00 (permalink)
    Yesterday was day 1 with it for me, its crashed a lot until I put -100 core clock, seems stable now ran it for a few hours in games last night.

    9900k
    Aorus z390
    Trident Z Royal 3600mhz C16
    EVGA 3080 XC3 Gaming
    EVGA 750W G3 PSU

    Heatware


     
    #4
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:07:18 (permalink)
    ^ Yeah, those are bandaid fixes. The issue lies with the capacitors themselves. Having to deliberately downclock a card to get it to not crash is unacceptable. Especially in a 700 dollar product. Even more so if this same thing exists on the 3090 boards.

    @Andzx

    What card do you have?
    #5
    torick
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:10:57 (permalink)
    Andzx
    Yesterday was day 1 with it for me, its crashed a lot until I put -100 core clock, seems stable now ran it for a few hours in games last night.


    Do you think they pushed these cards over their limits or just not fully optimized drivers?
    #6
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:17:02 (permalink)
    torick
    Andzx
    Yesterday was day 1 with it for me, its crashed a lot until I put -100 core clock, seems stable now ran it for a few hours in games last night.


    Do you think they pushed these cards over their limits or just not fully optimized drivers?


    Probably a little bit of a driver problem in some instances. Nvidia bungled the launch and AIBs couldn’t even get drivers until the day of.

    But based on the Igor article, this is an inherent hardware problem. The card will crash at higher frequencies because of the cheaper POSCAPs.
    #7
    Rage_M
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:28:03 (permalink)
    I have the XC Black 3080, which isn't factory overclocked. OC'd GPU+40 and Memory+700 in Precision X1, using a Thermaltake 750W Toughpower G1. So far I've yet to run across any crashes in games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Monster Hunter World, Skyrim VR, and DOOM Eternal. Gonna try out some more games in a little while, but so far so good.
    #8
    Tunatron
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:36:00 (permalink)
    I've had an XC3 Ultra for a week and have not had a crash.  Playing mostly Control and CoD: Warzone.
    #9
    pixelcowboy
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:43:06 (permalink)
    XC3 for a day here and no crashes. I ddu'd before installing a it.
    #10
    Frammish
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:47:21 (permalink)
    I think Igor is onto something.
     
    A few things to keep in mind, though. This effect will depend on a lot of things and circuitry elsewhere could mitigate the noise making the difference between POSCAPs and MLCCs a moot point for EVGA boards. But it also may not be mitigated and could affect EVGA boards. 3090s have slightly different/higher current draw and that could also change things up. I’d expect that to make things worse but that is not a given. It looks like 3090s have an extra power phase or so that could easily make this not apply to the 3090s. It takes good test equipment to see things at that level and speed but overclockability is a practical handle on this. Got to emphasize there will be lots of things likely affecting the noise levels so just because POSCAPs may be used doesn’t necessarily mean problems.
     
    The 3080 XC3 Ultra has a patch of MLCCs in the EVGA product photo but there’s a majority that appear to be all POSCAPs. The board I wanted (3090 FTW3 Ultra) shows all POSCAPs. Could be the line was changed to switch to at least some MLCCs and the photos just need updating, or the photos could be accurate. It will take people getting their cards reporting what they got, if they have lockups or low overclocks, or a statement from EVGA to clear this up.
     
    For now at least, I’m glad I didn’t get a 1st wave board and will be watching this closely. Very curious if the product images here are accurate (those could be early production and not up to date), what capacitors are actually shipping to customers, and if the effect is even real (though I suspect it is), and if this applies to 3090s too or just 3080s.
    #11
    aldur80
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:49:34 (permalink)
    I have a 3090 FTW3 Ultra on the way. I'll report back when I get it up and running.
     
    pixelcowboy
    XC3 for a day here and no crashes. I ddu'd before installing a it.

    It's a good idea to DDU when switching GPUs. I'm thinking about doing a full windows reinstall as my current system has been acting a little funny. I'd hate to have problems with my shinny new toy all because there was something wrong with Windows.
    #12
    Frammish
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:50:07 (permalink)
    For those reporting results - good or bad - please be sure to also note if you have all POSCAPs or any MLCC patches.
     
    #13
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:54:06 (permalink)
    Rage_M
    I have the XC Black 3080, which isn't factory overclocked. OC'd GPU+40 and Memory+700 in Precision X1, using a Thermaltake 750W Toughpower G1. So far I've yet to run across any crashes in games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Monster Hunter World, Skyrim VR, and DOOM Eternal. Gonna try out some more games in a little while, but so far so good.


    Can you take a picture of the back of the card? Specifically the PCB where the bracket for the die is. An up close picture.

    @Frammish

    Excellent post, and I concur. I’m glad I missed out on a first wave card now. 2 years ago we had the Space Invaders and now this. I always seem to get caught up in hype, but at the same time, I’m glad that I’ve missed out on a card right at launch because of these issues that always seem to crop up.
    #14
    pau164
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 06:59:26 (permalink)
    Argh, so this is going to be like silicon lottery? :(
    I guess maybe there's a silver lining to being unable to get a card.
    #15
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:01:13 (permalink)
    pau164
    Argh, so this is going to be like silicon lottery? :(
    I guess maybe there's a silver lining to being unable to get a card.


    No, it’s something that has to be changed on the PCB itself. It’s part of the design, not something random like absolute chip quality when it comes to highest stable OC.

    Edit: the 3090 FE has two MLCCs surrounded by POSCAPs.



    Hmmmmmmm.
    post edited by HawkOculus - 2020/09/25 07:09:20
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    Rage_M
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:14:19 (permalink)
    HawkOculus
    Rage_M
    I have the XC Black 3080, which isn't factory overclocked. OC'd GPU+40 and Memory+700 in Precision X1, using a Thermaltake 750W Toughpower G1. So far I've yet to run across any crashes in games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Monster Hunter World, Skyrim VR, and DOOM Eternal. Gonna try out some more games in a little while, but so far so good.


    Can you take a picture of the back of the card? Specifically the PCB where the bracket for the die is. An up close picture.

    @Frammish

    Excellent post, and I concur. I’m glad I missed out on a first wave card now. 2 years ago we had the Space Invaders and now this. I always seem to get caught up in hype, but at the same time, I’m glad that I’ve missed out on a card right at launch because of these issues that always seem to crop up.

    A bit on the low quality side, but you can still sort of make it out

    #17
    Frammish
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:20:17 (permalink)
    @HawkOculus, got to say it’s a big unknown right now but appears to be fitting what people are seeing. It also makes sense especially in light of the Zotac issues. That photo you posted being of a 3090FE with two patches of MLCCs would indicate 3090s can indeed have the same kind of issue (though keep having to hedge and say can instead of will until we know for sure). Thanks for that photo!
     
    And those product photos showing all polys on the product pages could be old/early and not representative of what the 1st wave buyers will actually receive. Marketing might not be aware of the significance. But luckily we don’t have to worry and can just watch. Yeah. That’s how I console myself... 😁
    #18
    DSychev
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:21:56 (permalink)
    Frammish
    I think Igor is onto something.
     
    A few things to keep in mind, though. This effect will depend on a lot of things and circuitry elsewhere could mitigate the noise making the difference between POSCAPs and MLCCs a moot point for EVGA boards. But it also may not be mitigated and could affect EVGA boards. 3090s have slightly different/higher current draw and that could also change things up. I’d expect that to make things worse but that is not a given. It looks like 3090s have an extra power phase or so that could easily make this not apply to the 3090s. It takes good test equipment to see things at that level and speed but overclockability is a practical handle on this. Got to emphasize there will be lots of things likely affecting the noise levels so just because POSCAPs may be used doesn’t necessarily mean problems.
     
    The 3080 XC3 Ultra has a patch of MLCCs in the EVGA product photo but there’s a majority that appear to be all POSCAPs. The board I wanted (3090 FTW3 Ultra) shows all POSCAPs. Could be the line was changed to switch to at least some MLCCs and the photos just need updating, or the photos could be accurate. It will take people getting their cards reporting what they got, if they have lockups or low overclocks, or a statement from EVGA to clear this up.
     
    For now at least, I’m glad I didn’t get a 1st wave board and will be watching this closely. Very curious if the product images here are accurate (those could be early production and not up to date), what capacitors are actually shipping to customers, and if the effect is even real (though I suspect it is), and if this applies to 3090s too or just 3080s.




     
    So I made the same comment on reddit. I was going by the pics that are posted on techpowerup and I assume you did the same. The actual FTW3 cards in the wild use MLCC in the middle, just like the XC3. 
     
    https://www.hd-tecnologia...090-ftw3-ultra-24gb/2/
    #19
    Frammish
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:25:43 (permalink)
    @RageM - Nice! At least one patch of MLCCs. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a back shot of the 3080 XC on its product page to see if EVGA just has old product photos up that do or do not represent shipping cards.
    #20
    torick
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:26:43 (permalink)
    What exactly are we looking at and looking for as i have no idea what MLCCs and POSCAPs are? Any pictures and location to at.
    #21
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:27:21 (permalink)
    Rage_M
    A bit on the low quality side, but you can still sort of make it out
    [image]https://i.imgur.com/3iBE6Z8.jpg[/image


    One MLCC there. Checks out. That must be why you have no problems. I wonder what other cards look like?

    Maybe this is partly the reason why the stock levels are so abysmal? If the AIBs truly got everything last minute, they probably didn’t become aware of this issue until literally on launch day. They would’ve had to scramble to try to fix it.

    torick
    What exactly are we looking at and looking for as i have no idea what MLCCs and POSCAPs are? Any pictures and location to at.


    We are looking at capacitors on the back of the GPU. Cheaper POSCAPs do a poor job of filtering some of the high frequencies in terms of voltage to the GPU. At least that’s my understanding. I’m not super knowledgeable in terms of PCB and GPU design, though.

    But the takeaway is that a capacitor group with at least one MLCC will be able to deal with higher clocks. The cheaper POSCAP groups have issues with higher frequencies and cause crashes.
    post edited by HawkOculus - 2020/09/25 07:30:07
    #22
    Frammish
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:28:31 (permalink)
    I hadn’t seen the Techpowerup images but am glad that the product images appear to be old.
     
    EVGA might want to update where appropriate since this is now a thing at least some are looking at.
     
    #23
    Lokator
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:39:13 (permalink)
    here some pics, green good, red not good

    Attached Image(s)



    #24
    GBucket
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:39:35 (permalink)
    Are there any pictures that show the capacitor configuration on an EVGA 3090 XC3 Ultra?
    Bought one of those from caseking.de and feeling now a tiny bit apprehensive...
    #25
    Lokator
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:45:38 (permalink)
    yes at the EVGA shop you see 1x mlcc for xc3 and 0x mlcc for ftw3.

    Already saw other brands with different mlcc amount on same cards, so could all change....

    pretty messy launch tbf


    #26
    stroker425
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 07:46:16 (permalink)
    Crashes usually happen first week due to drivers and games not being properly optimized.
    #27
    HawkOculus
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    Re: 30 series cards crashing in games? 2020/09/25 08:06:32 (permalink)
    stroker425
    Crashes usually happen first week due to drivers and games not being properly optimized.


    It’s not purely a driver issue. Did you read the article?
    #28
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