zurginator
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I've noticed that the stuff is everywhere on here, and thought I would just point out something that I myself also experienced. There is a well-documented issue with IC Diamond sometimes scratching, polishing, and even rarer, it can cause chemical abrasion to the IHS. I personally got some micro scratches on both my 480 waterblocks and the CPU 360, noticeable because of the nickel plating. However, these do not show up on camera, so I cannot post that here. However, I will refer you to a few other threads on the matter. http://www.overclockers.c...howthread.php?t=649643 http://forums.anandtech.c..howthread.php?t=2073442 http://www.silentpcreview.../viewtopic.php?t=42128 I'm not saying not to buy it, it can indeed lower your temps. However, as everyone seems to be using it, I wanted people to be informed on the matter.
post edited by zurginator - 2010/11/20 10:54:25
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boredgunner
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 10:58:32
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Here is an image from one of the threads.
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donta1979
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:01:40
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Yes that is what happens with diamonds it will not absorb the tim. Diamonds cut that is a given. But if i get a few small tiny scratches so be it, I would rather have my cards/cpu run cool than using a different tim and having my stuff run warmer in what I consider unresonable temps at least on my GTX 480's. If your someone who constantly changes out tim, removing your cpu, or removing your gpu heatsink out of paranoa or bad applications due to you not doing something right I can see this being a huge problem it was for other people in the past with diamond based tims. Its just something you have to take into consideration when you want the lowest temps possible. Like I have thermal grease from when I was in the military for my M240b, M2, 9mm and m16a4 yeah I was a walking armory when we left the apc.... but the stuff cools better than any tim... but its toxic as hell... if I would go back to using that I would have to keep in mind gloves etc. Just like IC diamond there are diamonds in the tim... its going to scratch esp if you remove your heatsink alot.
post edited by donta1979 - 2010/11/20 11:07:13
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zurginator
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:04:41
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Well, depends on that 'alternate TIM'. I use Shin Etsu, and it beats IC Diamond handily.... without any corrosion or scratching.
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emepror
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:06:19
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scratches degrade value dont they? also what happens if you need to RMA the CPU for some reason, they see scratches and youll be Sad out of luck
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brcromer
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:07:15
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I don't really understand what the problem is? Is having a few scratches bad? I thought TIM was supposed to be used to fill in scratches and conduct heat from a processor to the heatsink. I have noticed a little scratching on one of my processors after using IC Diamond but it only happened after I tried to wipe off the TIM without using any dissolver first.
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emepror
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:07:49
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TIM is supposed to fill scratches, not create them
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donta1979
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:09:20
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zurginator
Well, depends on that 'alternate TIM'. I use Shin Etsu, and it beats IC Diamond handily.... without any corrosion or scratching.
depends I used it on my gpu's didnt turn out so hot as ic diamond, will be trying ic diamond on my cpu to see if my shin etsu results are better than those of ic diamonds. i know my shin etsu results where better than temps reported on the forums with people using ic diamond. Once I get around to doing it will try it out. But yeah for gpus going to stick with ic diamond for best cooling results because when I used shin-etsu on my gpus the results where not as good.
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zurginator
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:14:01
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donta1979 zurginator Well, depends on that 'alternate TIM'. I use Shin Etsu, and it beats IC Diamond handily.... without any corrosion or scratching. depends I used it on my gpu's didnt turn out so hot as ic diamond, will be trying ic diamond on my cpu to see if my shin etsu results are better than those of ic diamonds. i know my shin etsu results where better than temps reported on the forums with people using ic diamond. Once I get around to doing it will try it out. But yeah for gpus going to stick with ic diamond for best cooling results because when I used shin-etsu on my gpus the results where not as good. Welcome to the world of TIM results being all over the place. When I put the IC on my 480s, I got a ~2c difference at load. Changing to Shin Etsu got me a ~7c change on top of that. That, however, is not the point of this topic. It's just to warn about scratching, which over time (and in that photo above) will go to the point of warranty being void, and possibly not being able to resell the chip.
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donta1979
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:19:28
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I agree if your someone who sells hardware as fast as it comes out to upgrade I can agree with you, but for someone who holds onto stuff when its worth 90% of what its original msrp was does not really matter. I agree with the warranty part but only on say something INTEL they tend to be natzi's when you rma one of their chips. GPU on the other hand depending on vendor is a different story. As long as you apply it once correctly your set to go. Shin Etsu on my gpus only gave me a 4-8c drop under load still leaving my gpus over 70c where IC diamond i do not touch and or exeed 70c highest I see mine go with tri sli is 68c with 3 GTX 480's. If i messed up the application of it I could definatly see myself scratching the gpu chip's metal cover for sure but do it right once your done. Also not using any cleaning solution and wiping the tim off normally results in the scratches, its why I use that artic clean stuff found out it eats plastic once..., eats tim right off and lets me pat the old tim off, most you will get is tiny micro holes if anything that are not viewable by the neckade eye, like the metal that is already brushed alerady. Now you dont use any type of desolver/cleaner and just wipe it clean that is when you will definatly get the scatches shown in pictures or just applying a cleaner and then wiping it up right away instead of waiting a couple of minutes for say isoparm alc or artic clean to do its thing and make the tim a liquid.
post edited by donta1979 - 2010/11/20 11:29:12
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Afterburner
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:23:47
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Thanks for the info... I have to wonder if this could become a warranty issue for some because most warranties specifically do not allow physical alterations or damage... That said... Diamonds are one of the strongest materials on Earth. How could it not cause some form of damage? Lastly... I still have not seen a clear cut winner in regards to TIM. I still use MX-3 and a little MX-4 and have never had any issues. It is all a personal preference. I find (After spending over $200 in different TIM's and testing on GTX295's and CO-920's) that the way a system is setup has a bigger role in temps than just the TIM ever will. So 1-5c difference here and there is such a small impact as it is, why stress over it. Just use what works for you...
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Sleepee
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:48:16
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It could've been me and removing it. I don't swap out CPUs all that often, and for builds I do for friends, I've never had to pull off a heatsink for any reason.
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donta1979
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 11:49:53
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Sleepee
I used Arcticlean for awhile, but then I switched over to 91% Isopropyl and Q-Tips because I wasn't afraid of running out with it. That Q9550 was cleaned with Arcticlean, and it's been sold for a few months now. No complaints from my buyer in that time period either, so I supposed it's fine. I'm just bringing that up to show that there is a bit of damage from IC, but it's not drastic.
you can use iso alc but you cannot wipe it off you have to pretty much wait over a minute let it dissolve the thermal grease then pat it off with anything using diamonds in it, wiping only creates scratches, the pat/soak up method will allow to clean off a diamond based tim without scratching when you wipe it has diamonds that are being pushed against the cpu/gpu and cause the scratching. Also cleaning weapons when your in a desert environment same holds true the CLP mixed with sand if you wipe the inside of the rifle you scratch off the protective coating. only way to clean it is soaking it with CLP then patting it down swabs or putting it into a weapons cleaning vat basically a tub full of CLP that moves the liquid around and cleans your weapons.
post edited by donta1979 - 2010/11/20 11:58:35
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Theophilus20
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 12:33:32
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+1 for Zero ^^^ My understanding is that the scratches are caused by trying to seperate the CPU and HS. You cannot just lift a HS off a CPU unless the TIM is so baked that its all dried out. the TIM when compressed causes suction. Most ppl (like me) have to move the HS around or even slightly twist it to break the suction. This is where ICD, if at all, would cause scratches. I have never used it. But, to me, its a non-issue. I have never asked for closeups to see if it has "Micro Scratches" before i buy it. Nobodys gonna see it under there. If all the etching is gone off the face of the CPU, then im thinking: "Someonse a little O.C.D. with the tim replacement."
post edited by Theophilus20 - 2010/11/20 12:35:23
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bucyrus5000
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 12:42:51
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I only see this as a problem if you were intending to lap your chips. (note to self: don't lap chips when using TIMs with diamonds)
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OV3RCLK4
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 13:23:59
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Even Q-Tips can scratch the IHS. My CPU is Lapped and i noticed i could scratch it with a q-tip. No worries for me because i can just slide it around on some 2000 grit sandpaper and get a shiny finish again.
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vlad01
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 14:24:04
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scratched just means the diamond crystals are beading into both surfaces and providing more surface to diamond contact area. I say if you got scratched and little pits evenly on both surfaces, you have done well. Just continue using the diamond tim only on those surfaces already used with it.
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diegorubeus
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 14:43:16
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im gonna keep using OCZ FREEZE. since i got my i7 930 i had to re-apply tim 2 times. frist time while reinstalling my cooler master v8 after upgrading the fan on it and second time after putting my corsair h50 and using OCZ FREEZe instead on the stoc tim that it came with. after i got my cpu out of the socket i didn't even have 1 scrath on it! i know the cooler master v8 is a huge cooler but it didnt do anything to it, and of course OCZ FREEZE didn't do anything to my chip also. it looks as it is brand new and that's why i love it! good temps and not even an issue so far.
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brunions
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 15:22:13
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Falcon sent me a sample that I haven't use yet because I don't have the rest of my parts but after I keep seeing these warnings on the net, I'm a bit sceptical of using it. I'd rather have a bit higher temps than having the possibility that it could ruin my CPU. What are you supposed to use to remove it anyways? I've always used Isopropyl alcohol since its cheap and it works relatively well for anything sticky.
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NordicJedi
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 16:15:54
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Moving to the Overclocking, Cooling, and Benchmarking forum.
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kaninja
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 16:19:44
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It's a great TIM that works. Yes it can scratch your CPU heatsink but that's about it. So unless you are totally paranoid about warranty issues, or want to sell your CPU in pristine condition with zero chance of scratching then I wouldn't worry about it. It will not "ruin" your CPU or GPU.
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direraptor22
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 16:55:18
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I had a post about this topic earlier... http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=663566 Apparently I did something wrong... since I haven't noticed that happening before I used ICD (Arctic Silver 5)... but due to the impressive results of ICD compared to anything else, I'm still sticking with it.
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msmith5150
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 17:00:03
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lol, that first pic with the CPU info blocked out looks like they either ran that chip across some 800 grit, or put a dab of ICD on it stuck the HS to it and rubbed them together with his hands really fast. That's some pretty extreme scratches going on there. I have been using the same lapped E8400 across 3 different mobo changes, and 3 air coolers and one water block using ICD and never had to lap it over. I think that pic is taking a bit of "creative license"
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geek32
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 17:46:45
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boredgunner Here is an image from one of the threads. this is a lapped cpu no matter how it looks like. been doing TIM removal for how many years and never been encountered with this before. i'll take a chance to use Falcon's IC Diamond Sample once i got my new cpu then have it applied-remove-then-apply again and see how it's going to fare with the above pic.
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BioHazardSperm
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 17:50:54
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to me that looks lapped and someone got sloppy .Or they just tried to wipe the TIM off in one try being way to aggressive .
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IC DIAMOND
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 19:10:59
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Who knew thermal compound could be so exciting! I look at this stuff all the time under a microscope so have a little different view. The abrasion lines or scratches are contiguous in/through the "etched" area and outside the etched area. Take some IC Diamond and cloth and Polish a spot on your heat sink you will never see a scratch as deep as those pictured as the grit is in the finer lapping lapping category. It will buff up more mirror like as there is no shine to it there was no polishing. What's happening is ICD has some carbon black which is of a smaller particle size than the diamond and has settled into the already existing micro scratches. Because the micro grooves are so small something as gross as a q-tip or paper towel will not fit or penetrate into the depressed area. Stainless steel has a similar kind of finish and is a PITA to clean well with a cloth, sponge and any household cleaner always some fingerprint or smear that will not wipe out as it has settled into the micro finish. What works to clean SS really well on my refrigerator? Mr. Clean Magic Eraser It's a nano foam material so it penetrates the micro finish and gets it sparkly clean. I would recommend it for those tough stains. I keep a supply on hand in the lab and use for a number of applications and perfectly safe for the IHS. Just to note many compounds are lapping compounds... A significant number of commonly used compounds contain Aluminum Oxide aka saphire aka corundum Or what they commonly make sandpaper out of. MOHS hardness scale Aluminum Oxide 9 Diamond 10 Copper IHS 3 AS5 & ceramique both contain Aluminum Oxide. Worried about scratches, polishing? use the zinc white paste
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Sleepee
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 19:31:11
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Thanks for that! So what look like scratches on my CPU (posted earlier) was just IC Diamond that had settled into the grooves of the stainless steel?
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z3r0t0l0rence
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 19:35:33
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IC DIAMOND Who knew thermal compound could be so exciting! I look at this stuff all the time under a microscope so have a little different view. The abrasion lines or scratches are contiguous in/through the "etched" area and outside the etched area. Take some IC Diamond and cloth and Polish a spot on your heat sink you will never see a scratch as deep as those pictured as the grit is in the finer lapping lapping category. It will buff up more mirror like as there is no shine to it there was no polishing. What's happening is ICD has some carbon black which is of a smaller particle size than the diamond and has settled into the already existing micro scratches. Because the micro grooves are so small something as gross as a q-tip or paper towel will not fit or penetrate into the depressed area. Stainless steel has a similar kind of finish and is a PITA to clean well with a cloth, sponge and any household cleaner always some fingerprint or smear that will not wipe out as it has settled into the micro finish. What works to clean SS really well on my refrigerator? Mr. Clean Magic Eraser It's a nano foam material so it penetrates the micro finish and gets it sparkly clean. I would recommend it for those tough stains. I keep a supply on hand in the lab and use for a number of applications and perfectly safe for the IHS. Just to note many compounds are lapping compounds... A significant number of commonly used compounds contain Aluminum Oxide aka saphire aka corundum Or what they commonly make sandpaper out of. MOHS hardness scale Aluminum Oxide 9 Diamond 10 Copper IHS 3 AS5 & ceramique both contain Aluminum Oxide. Worried about scratches, polishing? use the zinc white paste Thanks for adding this detailed info. I hope this helps to explain to others that are either upset or confused by this scratch issue. Thanks again! Z3r0
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IC DIAMOND
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 20:03:53
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Separate issue, Abrasives need pressure and movement to work. IHS's are not flat and You will have high spots. So if you are loaded 50psi the pressure is not evenly distributed, on most contact and pressure samples I have you will find areas that exceed 100 psi. Now take some 800 (common particle size range for thermal and lapping compounds) grit sandpaper mount it between the sink and IHS, statically no problem and will not leave a mark. Now rotate the sink under load and yeah, it's gonna leave a mark on those 100 psi contact areas no doubt about it. It's the nature of the beast Many people have the habit (myself included) of rotating the sink back and forth on mount under pressure to spread the compound and to help it settle in. Abrasives are fine statically you just can not move them around under pressure with out effect.
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JeffreyHam
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Re:IC Diamond warning
2010/11/20 21:37:18
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Thank you for the excellent info. you have provided here, ICD!!
PLEASE REMEMBER TO UPLOAD A COPY OF YOUR INVOICE = My Current Linked and Synced Settings All detailed system components are listed on my Mods Rigs page.
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