Hmm... Olive branch or cactus?  I'm voing the later.

No, it was me, Viper97. You might recall I'm with Overclockers.com (OCF).
 
I'm looking for ideas to change the Chimp Challenge, into a cooperative teams race of some kind, instead of a team vs. team format. The main reason is that I see no way to make the race "fair", or even close to it, when we have folders earning millions of points per day.
 
We did not have time to make all the changes needed before the last CC, but we do have time now, if we get working on it.
 
I'd like to do some brainstorming with EVGA (and other teams as well) for ideas, and see which of them have a good vibe to them. No idea is a bad one! The more we have to consider, the more likely we can find a good idea for the next race.
 
Any idea's? What would you like to see in a cooperative multi-team effort?
 
I won't be here much, (some, but not a lot). Xavier will be bringing them over to the captains forum, later on (as he notes above).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

troy8d

Adak1
 
We did not have time to make all the changes needed before the last CC, but we do have time now, if we get working on it.
 

As I recall, you were more interested in telling us how great your system was, promoting yourself, and insulting our team and its members rather than working to improve the Chimp Challenge.  You've done much more harm than good for the CC in these parts.  You'll have to forgive me, but I can't take you seriously.
 
 
 

All in favor of moving on from the mistakes or not of last year and trying to make CC better than ever say aye.

Viper97
Eh... I'm folding all I got now.  I have been since the last CC... or even more so actually.  I'm not sure a contest or challenge is worth my involvement.  This year was my first CC and it was a bit weird for me. 
 
Yeah Adak I remember you... albeit I often get OCN and OCF confused. 
 
I really don't have anything to contribute.  I fold 24/7 so either way, unless you specifically have to sign up again it won't affect me. 

Its all for the cause... It also being for the team is just a side benefit.
 
Personally I would like to see EVGA take home the Jaded Monkey one year that I have participated in F@H but its still about the cause more than the team for me.  I am a relative newbie compared to some of the veterans around here and my only input would be that we should be finding a way to focus on new SUSTAINED membership more than the points.  Maybe we can make CC more than a 10 day event by making it a 2 part event.  The 10 day main even where the race happens and 30 days later to see if stats for each participating member (signup or no signup) drop off significantly and some kind of penalty for drop offs.  This could help prevent switchers to push up the stats of a team and could drive home the more important point of NEW MEMBERS for more F@H in the long run.

If what's being proposed is "all participating teams trying to hit a combined total," I'm not sure where the challenge in that is, and thus I'm not sure it's much of a competition.  Maybe someone else could explain how that would get people excited to fold more.
 
A thought that came to mind was groups of teams going against other groups.  Obviously you'd pair higher-earning teams with lower-earning ones, because having [H] and EVGA teamed up would be patently unfair (I realize [H] no longer participates, that was an example).  The problem is, using the PPD figures of this year's participants, you could only really do 2 groups, and I don't know if that would be interesting enough.  EVGA's currently averaging 49 million PPD, while the rest combined are doing 64 million*.  I don't see a way to break that into 3 or more balanced groups without bringing in more teams.  On the plus side, balancing the groups, even if there's only 2, would mean you don't have to handicap anything.
 
Is there any chance of getting [H] back in?  I don't know what anyone's output will look like in 6 months, but right now you could do [H] vs. EVGA and a few 7-digit-PPD teams vs. everyone else.  Since I only joined in February and didn't pay much attention to this year's CC I don't know why they left.
 
 
 
*For a second I was thinking maybe "EVGA vs. the world," but either we'd be at a big disadvantage or some teams would have to be left out, neither of which sounds good.

@pcmaster00
EVGA is a good racing team. They're always tough to beat.
 
The checking part after the race is over seems tough to handle. This is for a competitive race, however. We're looking for a cooperative format this year, if we can find one.
 
@Zagen30
Exactly right! We have to scout around and see if we can find a fun, but cooperative format.
 
@bobc36
We have a good handicap points system, for a competitive race. It's simple, based on horse handicapping.
 
There aren't "dirty tricks", because we define "dirty" as clean. Recruiting outside the team, for instance, has been a part of the CC, since it's inception. Instead of banning it, we encourage it, because it adds to the fun, and gets more people introduced and involved in a CC race. After they have had a fun CC, they want to race again, next year.
 
An example would be Macaholic, last year. He's always raced with us. Folded regularly with us, for years. Said "he'd be there" for the race. Well, he was there - but racing with your team! Now Macaholic isn't just "Macaholic". He's Christian Bargmann, also, and a Super strong folder! (#30 on the All User's list, under just ONE of his folding names).
 
Naturally, that was an OMG! moment for OCF, and while OCF might call this a "dirty trick" during the race, it's all fun, too, and undeniably adds to the excitement of the race.  ;)   Christian went from "stalwart teammate", to "cut throat Pirate", in the blink of an eye! And in this context, that's a lot of fun.
 
Today, with the points inflation, we need to prevent "Super folders" from being recruited, and totally destroying the balance of the racing teams. Some folders today, are making 9+ million points per day!  That makes it a real problem if the race is team vs. team. (Brilong raced some with us this year, the super folder sbinh raced with Vietnam Global Team, etc.)
 
So this year, I thought we'd try Xavier's idea for a cooperative race, and see if a good race can be run this way.
 
The right format for a cooperative event/race has eluded us, so far, but I'm asking for help from several teams, so maybe we can find it.
 
I hope this puts your mind at ease about the CC, and thanks for replying.
 

The roots of the CC have no information or idea about a cooperative event/race. They were all (very) competitive, with LOTS of harsh trash talking, and etc. Not what we're looking for.
 
Afterburner, do you have any idea's for a fun format for a cooperative folding event or race? Something that everyone could enjoy being a part of? Fun should definitely be a major consideration. ;)
 
I didn't read through your linked threads because I'm sure they're full of trash talk, and arguing, from previous races. I'd rather keep the focus on this idea of a cooperative event or race. It could be a very good idea, but only if we can find a good format for it.
 
 
 
 

Afterburner
You know... Many of us work tirelessly in the background helping all year long. We work together as a team. There is no "I" in EVGA... Both of those threads went sideways because of your posts. If you are not going to take the time to read, I see no reasons I should do anything for you. You clearly did not learn from your antics of last year. 
 
Frankly the way you have conducted yourself on our forums I am not interested in what you have to say. All one has to do is read your post to understand my position in that matter.
 

Of course you work to help your team, and Folding@Home. That's what good team folders do.
 
We had a disagreement last year. As the comedian says, "The make up sex will be awesome!"  
I'm looking for ideas for a cooperative event or race, not an argument.
 
 

Xavier will bring in the ideas of your team. I was trying to stimulate an early and quick discussion of those ideas, with the EVGA CC Captain and team.
 
I'm doing the same thing with several other teams, and I didn't want to leave EVGA out.

Bc, please don't let what happened (or what was said regarding Chimp Challenge) affect your participation with this great team.  Of course you are always free to go wherever you feel most comfortable and you will always be a welcome member/visitor here too.  The problems with Chimp Challenge have been rather unique to that contest.  While unfortunate that there have been issues with it, there are also plenty of people (participants) that just want to show up, do the thing and declare victory from just Folding.  Gotta really love that and I respect them for it too.  We also have people in the contest with a lot of passion (and talent) for trying to making it competitive and fair.  The development of those things is not without it's challenges though.  Sometimes the contest has been negatively affected by what people believe are less than honest maneuvers to gain some unfair advantage over other teams. 
 
Whether CC flounders, fizzles, or flourishes, the main thing that every Folder has to hold dear is "why we Fold in the first place".  I think we all know that Folding contests are best designed and implemented when they positively encourage Folding and expand membership.  That idea has always been at the forefront of what Team EVGA is about with Folding contests, and is just one of many reasons why I call this team "home".
 
We do have some of the most talented people at developing Folding contests right here on this team.  I stand in awe of them and their ability to do what they do.  Whether CC is resurrected in a new/better form or not, we have other contests right here that are absolutely terrific (Time Zone Challenge, March Madness, etc).  I'd love to see you there for those contests and certainly enjoy having you on our team.  No worries either if you feel the need to change.

Is it okay if I pick my nose first?  Oh look... I have for the first time an Avatar.... I wonder what that means!  It is our team... we are the team... we are just plain crazy.  Let's face it... we are crazy.  It is however; for a good cause.  I'm just glad I found this place and all you nut jobs!
 
That said... if the team needs me... I'm there in a heart beat.  Adak.... please speak to the captains only and don't bring the drama in here you did last challenge.  It belittles the CC... and I think I can honestly say you contributed much to that. 
 
As always this is my opinion.  Your mileage may vary. 

I'll support the team, but will have no problems if the team sits out the CC2014.

bobc36
All that being said, why did Zodac have to go and get married? She was much easier to work with. 

Thats news that I had not heard about Zodac.  Zodac could be "tough as nails" at times with CC development, but was still welcome here in my book.  Good for her(him) and I wish lots of success to both! 

Adak1
@bobc:
At the time the handicap for the VGT was being calculated, sbinh was folding primarily with [H]ardOCP. I knew he folded for VGT. I did not know he was such a strong folder, until the CC started, and all his machines switched over to VGT.
 
The influence of super folders has grown sharply over the last year. If we continue to admit outside super folders into the CC, the teams which recruit very little, will be at a significant disadvantage.
 
This is not an issue with my team. We have recruited very successfully for the last two years. I would like to see the CC format changed, and keep it interesting. If we can find a good cooperative format, maybe try it.
 
Why do I want to work at the team level, instead of the captain's level? Because the initial input of ideas happens a LOT faster at this level. The Captains forum works at a much, MUCH slower pace. For example, I posted this same topic in the Captain's forum six days ago.
 
How many replies have been posted back in the Captain's forum? NONE. Nobody has posted in the Captain's forum, in several months, except me. That's why I'm here, trying to have a civil discourse.
 

 
Adak,
 
I would like to see a format that would give all teams an equal opportunity to win, that would be recycled each year without any changes to the way things are calculated. This is why I proposed a simple, yet (in my eyes) effective solution to achieve that goal. I just want to address some of your comments based on my above proposal:
 

• The influence of super folders has grown sharply over the last year. I agree. Over the last year, I personally have tripled my monthly output, not to mention, EVGA's output has exploded. But I feel we could go higher if all of our members knew about core 17. That is our job as a team to educate our members. 
• If we continue to admit outside super folders into the CC, the teams which recruit very little, will be at a significant disadvantage.  Then they should lose. Cold Hard Facts. The original goal of the CC was to bring people to know what F @H  is. If they cant recruit, then they are not meeting the goal of the CC. 
• This is not an issue with my team. We have recruited very successfully for the last two years. I applaud you guys, and the results have shown that. Do you guys think you could make 100 mil points before EVGA made 300 mil? Thats the type of race that I'm proposing. 
• I would like to see the CC format changed, and keep it interesting. If we can find a good cooperative format, maybe try it. As I said above, I would like a format that every team can win. I would like to see the smaller teams like TSC Russia win, but not by a handicap. If they could (without me looking at their ppd) produce 25 mil points before your team produced 75 mil, would you consider that fair? 
• Why do I want to work at the team level, instead of the captain's level? Because the initial input of ideas happens a LOT faster at this level. The Captains forum works at a much, MUCH slower pace.  From what I've heard, trying to get some of the other teams involved is like pulling teeth, so I understand your reasoning for going to the individual forums. 
  

 
Now like I said, I hate the CC, but I am willing to try to work on an idea of how to fix it, and make it competitive for all parties involved. 
 
Please let me know your comments, and I will do my best to address them.
 
bob

I'm definitely not going to cooperate.  It's a contest... a head to head against the best.  No handicapping... no toys... no guest folders.  Can't do that?  I'll shut down my rigs.  Personally the CC is still tainted.  Cooperative mode seems just another trap to me.  Nope... I'm taking my toys and not playing with others unless it's fair and my team agrees that it is so.  I'll wait for this one.  Meanwhile I've got a jaded monkey design I need to work on.  Just in case.