This thread is being started for any of us that would like to openly discuss the 2014 Chimp Challenge. We want to improve on the mistakes we made during the 2013 challenge, and leverage the strengths we have.
 
We are creating this thread before the 2013 challenge to afford us a place to go for issues/ideas/challenges/etc that we have before, during and after the 2013 event. This way we have one thread to "Catch all" the thoughts and input provided by our team members.
 
The idea is simple... We all should have a "Safe" place to openly discuss the current and next CC, or for venting issues we as individuals or as a team that need to be discussed.. This can include... 

• Did it promote the "Spirit" of the event predominantly
• What could we do to improve on this?
• did we or are we have a good time!
• What rules should we propose changes to
• Should we participate
• Time of year
• Test ideas for formulas
• ETC

The rules... 

• Always keep in mind the idea of the CC is to grow our team and other teams as we raise awareness to what Folding is. It is not about winning! However that can be "Part" of why we do it, it is not the only "Reason" to do it.
• Post ONLY if you can start and follow through with an "Agree to Disagree" / "Constructive" comment, topic, discussion or response.
• Any bickering or bantering, or even deliberate acts of pushing the "Spirit" of these rules will result in those posts being deleted.
• We are looking for all to feel safe and free to offer their own thoughts/feelings on this topic. 
• If you have a complaint/or have an issue with a part of the contest, great! We ask that you at least offer a solution to your complaint/issue in the same post you make to offer the complaint. Or two! 
• Any EVGA member is welcomed to comment, regardless of their level of production, new, old, past, never have folded. It simply does not matter. Some of the best conversations, ideas come from those that once folded or never have.
• All rules are subject to change as time allows, because Stone Cold Said So... 

 

Don't Anyone make me bring out old Roddy Piper 

:: will be Byting Bits for the next contest :: finally folding with the new system only a couple minor things left to collect. :-)

jinihammerer
Can i start my own team next year? i'll call it EVGA mini and it will be me and 3 other people... Then we will enter the contest and get 3 more people running BigAdv's and with these beautiful calculations.. I'll take home the jade monkey. 

Sorry... very few things annoy me. Just so happens rigging contests is one of them.

 
The handicap system is simple as pie, and anyone who has ever run in a race, will know it is fair (as can be). First, the goal of the system is not to make all the teams finish EQUAL (a photo finish if you will) - that's NOT it. The goal is to give every team an equal opportunity, to win. The stronger teams in the race, SHOULD win.
 
This is the basic handicap design for this year. Say for example, you have two racers that want to race in a 100 meter dash - say Bob and Sal. Now Bob is a 10.0 second racer, but Sal is slower - say 15.0 seconds.

Sal says he's a bigger guy, so he should get more of a handicap, since it takes more power to move him down the track. Bob says he's a smaller guy, so he has less muscle mass to power him down the track, and besides, Sal has a lot of people cheering for him on this hometown track, so he gets more motivation.

You are handicapping this Bob vs Sal race.

Cheering fans and motivation can't be quantified into points, so those factors, get ignored. Also, you don't care if Sal has had great practice runs lately, because you're not trying to make the runners finish in a dead heat.  If Sal is in better shape, then Sal SHOULD have the chance to use that better shape, to win. AFTER this race, the handicap will change - but not before.

For the first race, Sal gets a 5 second handicap.
Sal's handicap time = (actual time * 10) /15

For the next race, Sal has improved his racing, now down to 13.0 seconds. So Sal only gets a 3 second handicap. Sal's handicap time = (actual time * 10)/13

Next race, Bob pulls a hamstring, and his time is 40 seconds. For the handicap calculation, he's limited to 10% less than his last race time, before he pulled his hamstring. (and this 10% figure is adjustable, and yes, it's arbitrary).

There are a few other nitty gritty calculations for the CC handicap, but not much more. This part is not "simple as pie", but I'll try to explain it. We're doing the calculation using a ratio - which inherently favors smaller/weaker teams, and would be bad handicapping. So we take the first handicap ratio (let's call it the multiplier), for each team, and reduce it by a certain (yes, it's arbitrary), percentage: ie. * 0.94. Since the weaker teams will always have the higher multiplier, it has more of a reducing effect on them, thus bringing the smaller/weaker teams back down into balance with the larger/stronger teams, in their final multiplier.

The handicap system for the CC is simple, and fair. It's focused on ONE category only: POINTS. It's still handicapped, so small teams can win it - but so can big teams. If a team improves it's ppd over last year's CC, and continues that into the race, it has an EXCELLENT chance of winning the race.

That's the way it should be.

What doesn't matter:

* size of the team
* growth of the team
* ability to sign up it's folders to a single folding name
* production during the rest of the year

First and foremost, the CC is a RACE - not a F@Home promotional event. A good race will always be a promotional event - people REALLY LIKE races, they always have. They like watching them, reading about them, if there is good writing on them, and they like racing in them, but the CC is a *race*, before anything else.
The handicap system this year will not be spot on - no handicap CAN be just right, without several actual races to use as input - in similar races. We don't have that. The CC has changed dramatically just in the past 3 years, and has used three different handicap systems. Two of those were as much designed with FAH promotions by the teams, as it was with actual points in the race itself.
 
Besides being easy to understand 99% of it, the handicap system is self-righting. The teams that wins or race very well this year, will find their handicap adjust so it's harder to win, next year. Conversely, the team that does badly this year, will find it easier to compete next year.
 
It's interesting that in ALL the pre race look at actual folding points, using this handicap system, EVGA was #1, by a strong margin.  But all the OTHER teams knew it was a fair handicap system, and did not complain that EVGA was so far ahead in the preliminary results. Ask Xavier, he saw it posted in the Captain's forum.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

*looks around and Jumps out the window*
 
I fell and hurt myself now we have a handicap!!
 
CAG

milieu

*looks around and Jumps out the window*

I fell and hurt myself now we have a handicap!!

CAG

 
And once you start racing again, your handicap would be adjusted - AFTER each race. Not before. Now, how many times do you think you'd want to jump out said window, so you could get a better handicap?

Come on people lets just focus.... it's a close race
 
forget about the format/formula for once ...it's better than past ones - be blessed about it
no handicap will ever be fair - because of the nature/makeup of the teams
could it have been better - probably 
 
we can win this if we just get out as many people folding
were down from our peak....lets see about getting some old folders back and some new ones
 
lets get the whole team reved up and doing PR, hog-tying if necessary and getting as many people new and old (not folding)veterans folding 
 
lets let our fingers do the typing and bringing out the membership
it probably wouldn't hurt to convince family,neighbors and anyone you know to get online and check it out

 
 
 
 

 

Xavier Zepherious

Come on people lets just focus.... it's a close race

forget about the format/formula for once ...it's better than past ones - be blessed about it
no handicap will ever be fair - because of the nature/makeup of the teams
could it have been better - probably 

we can win this if we just get out as many people folding
were down from our peak....lets see about getting some old folders back and some new ones

lets get the whole team reved up and doing PR, hog-tying if necessary and getting as many people new and old (not folding)veterans folding 

lets let our fingers do the typing and bringing out the membership
it probably wouldn't hurt to convince family,neighbors and anyone you know to get online and check it out

Nice one Xavier.
As a recent member to EVGA forums and CC first-timer i'm experiencing a mixture of amusement and concern. If one of the key goals of CC is to increase membership in house handbag swinging isnt it unless that's the type of folders you are looking to attract.
 
I can understand people far more knowledgeable than myself putting in far more time and effort into this than i am currently able to. In my regular job i see frequent instances where it is easier to ciriticise something others have created than start something yourself from scratch. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. But if you see something may be done better, provide a realistic solution rather than just saying its rubbish.
 
We already have a forum for the 2014 CC. lets put that to good use.
 
......   and fold like crazy EVGApes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry Berti, Adak is from overclockers.com team not that I hold that against overclockers, I been a member over there forums for a very very long time. 
 
I was simply pointing out the fatal flaw in the logic of the contest.
 HIS logic since he is the master brain trust of the equations used this year. Frankly, I was not even speaking to him. I have no need to speak to some random abrasive internet d00d.
 
 From my sparse experience I have had speaking with this individual and reading his online banter,  I have come to the conclusion that there really is no point speaking to him. He is right and he will tell you so along with insulting you for speaking of such things.
 
Anyway that is neither here nor there. its not internal bickering going on I guess was my point. 
 

Done 

hey move my giving her all she got post back ;P that's race hype!  Fine i'll just post it again ;

jinihammerer

hey move my giving her all she got post back ;P that's race hype!  Fine i'll just post it again ;

Peace, Harmony and Folding Man. Ohh ok, maybe a bit of poo flinging too.

johnerz

Adak1

If you were that sure that the system was fair, why would you be so defensive about it?

Because you're in a very public forum, and you are demeaning not just the handicap system, but also the entire race. If you were in a private forum somewhere, I wouldn't care.
 
I don't want to see the CC go back to the system we used the last two years, with multiple categories, with measures that can't be reasonably quantified into raw points. If we keep the race results centered on actual points but still handicapped, it may flourish. If we don't, it probably won't.
 
I really don't need to defend the handicap system to EVGA. You'll like it just fine when you see that you're doing well in the race, and perhaps learn that I picked you as the pre race favorite to win, as well.
 
That's another FACT, and you probably won't put up with nonsense like that, since it won't conform to your excessively team-centric prejudices and dismissive attitudes very well. Another FACT is, you don't know ANYTHING when it comes to handicapping. You have never handicapped ANYTHING in your life.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Adak1

johnerz

Adak1

If you were that sure that the system was fair, why would you be so defensive about it?

Because you're in a very public forum, and you are demeaning not just the handicap system, but also the entire race. If you were in a private forum somewhere, I wouldn't care.

I don't want to see the CC go back to the system we used the last two years, with multiple categories, with measures that can't be reasonably quantified into raw points. If we keep the race results centered on actual points but still handicapped, it may flourish. If we don't, it probably won't.

I really don't need to defend the handicap system to EVGA. You'll like it just fine when you see that you're doing well in the race, and perhaps learn that I picked you as the pre race favorite to win, as well.

That's another FACT, and you probably won't put up with nonsense like that, since it won't conform to your excessively team-centric prejudices and dismissive attitudes very well. Another FACT is, you don't know ANYTHING when it comes to handicapping. You have never handicapped ANYTHING in your life.

 
Fact. All anyone from any team has to do is read all your posts here and they get a good picture about your feelings, how you conduct yourself when visiting other forums and opinions.
 
Fact. When one "Creates" "Takes full credit for creation of formula", that person needs to be more open to feedback in order for "The masses" to not only better understand/want to promote it and or feel the need to support said "Formula"... The majority want it to work.
 
Fact. There is no "I" in team. You have a lot of "I's" in all your communication.
 
Fact. You are not only hurting CC at the moment, you are losing creditably each time you make a post like the one I have copied here.
 
Fact. No one that we are aware of at this time, has yet found the perfect solution. There in fact may not be one. However, it is wonderful that you and others have taken a shot at it.
 
Fact. This year more folks seemed to be involved and as a result a lot of very productive changes happened. We need to NOT lose sight of that. Seriously.
 
Not a fact, but rather based off of memory. Even with all the attempted handicapping we have seen the last three years (Including this year)... There are still at max, only three teams going for the win. This is saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.
 
Fact. If this is going to be a once a year "Main event" for multiple teams. Then the Captains should...

1. Have a thread exclusive to the Captains (Like you do now) that all ideas can be discussed from the day after the current event.
2. Discuss what worked and what did not, now. Not next year. Grow from the knowledge.
3. Allow for testing to happen throughout the year. Be open to each teams ideas and actually try them... Do not tell the teams on the forums when you are testing. Keep it behind doors. Run all the ideas. Maybe, just maybe by doing this, a combination of all the ideas will show the "Answer" we all would love to see. A competitive event for all participants that maintains focus on growth of the community.

Speaking for myself here...
 
It seems to me that the current format (Time of year, length, new teams coming on board, easier to understand handicapping, etc) is much closer to the answer than the last two years had been. And boy am I glad to see that! This means folks are listening. And are trying to make it a better event. That is leadership that works!
 
However, I do find it interesting how one team the last three years is always in the top three, but "The majority" of the others teams have no chance to win even with all the calculations. This is counterproductive. 
 
It seems very clear to me, from where I sit. That our message is not being heard. Please allow me to give you a brief idea of what that message is.
 

• We want the focus to be about growing Folding @ Home awareness.
• We want to have a great time and participate like any other team in a fair contest.
• We want all teams to have a chance to win. Not us, or yours, or just three or four teams. All of them.
• We have one of the largest active memberships of all teams in the world. Yet in the past we had been shut out of the conversations, then allowed to at least give thoughts, all ignored, to this year being more of a team input. So we will have those memories until we feel like we do this year for a couple years. That we at least are equal to the input of any other team and taken seriously.
• Because of the pure size of our team, the odds are in our favor that at least a couple of us have a good idea on how to "Lead" and assist in handicapping. Yet year after year, we are ignored, or get comments like yours telling us we have no idea. So how is it exactly that we, with more folks from all walks of life, do not have folks who can help... But smaller teams do? Seems predigest to me.

Those are some of the ways I think we feel. "Some"...

I am very sorry... but .. i just could not help myself...