MSim

fredbsd

MSim

Let only test games that use our PhysX engine, who cares if its not open source where both camps have a level playing field. The only test i would accept is one using open source to show which card performs better.

Open source?  Are the benchmarks used to measure gaming performance open source?  I didn't think they were.

My bad for using open source, i should of said this.
How about vendor neutral so no one has an advantage when it comes to showing how good the performance is. We all know Far Cry 2 and Dark Void use Nvidia PhysX so those games are not vendor neutral.

Sorry for the late post,
 
    But, about games being "Vendor Neutral".
 
It will be harder to find titles that are totally vendor neutral because developers code with Nvidia GPU's more often and thats because Nvidia provides all those eye candy API's like 3D Vision and PhysX.
 
Now that we are beginning to also focus on general computing (not just Nvidia with its CUDA, but ATI with their Stream technology), ATI might get a little noticeable recognition on that end, but since Nvidia has a lot of partnership with major board partners, those companies will keep their expectations to one side.
 
I can only think of one Vendor Neutral game that is ALSO DirectX 11: DiRt 2. I haven't seen anything specially added to Dirt 2 for ATI users that Nvidia Users wont have (except for a opening title sequence from AMD ) because the first DiRt was able to use SLI and the engine for DiRt 2 still holds some of those features, while supporting new DirectX 11 features (even though Tesselation is the most noticable). Nvidia has already got SLI to work on DiRt 2 with its current Geforce cards.

I can only think of one Vendor Neutral game that is ALSO DirectX 11: DiRt 2. I haven't seen anything specially added to Dirt 2 for ATI users

One of the cars has a skin that is AMD/ATI with CrossFire X logos .. i have not seen an Nvidia skin..

BF BC2 will use Havok phys as it states that on the lead in screen of the beta i am testing .. i really see no need for Nvidia's PhsyX if Havok will be the standard..

namco

ATIs drivers are so ridiculous, even if the card (GF100) was slower, it would still be all made of win. I don't doubt for a second that it will beat in speed the 5970 in several tests and games included.

You are the only person I've ever heard or seen say that GF100 will beat out the 5970 "in several tests and games"...  And, to make it worse, you say that you "don't doubt for a second".

Do you mind explaining your reasoning for coming to such a conclusion?  It is interesting because I've never heard anyone come to this conclusion as of yet so I would really like to know.  Thanks!


edit:  You do realize that when you say that you are basically saying that one single GF100 will beat out Quad-SLI 295s too, right?

namco

One thing is a 5970, another thing are 2x GTX295. The 5970 isn't THAT MUCH faster than a 295 and is plagued by the bugs and issues we all know about. I might have pushed it a bit too high for the fastest single GPU fermi, i'll give you that, but i still bet it will beat the card in some apps.

I remember when people claimed the 4870x2 was this and that, then it came out and it wasn't half of what was announced

Anyway, i'll have to wait and see if this is true or not, it's just my idea.

Here is a general rule of thumb:

1 x 5870 = 1 x 295
1 x 5970 = 2 x 295

luv2increase

Here is a general rule of thumb:

1 x 5870 = 1 x 295
1 x 5970 = 2 x 295

Do you mean to say

1 x 5970 = 2 x 5870?

Neither that nor the second line in your "rule of thumb" is anywhere near accurate...

A 5870 isn't as fast as a 295 in DX9 or DX10. Not mine at least.

    actually, in most games, a 5870 is very comparible to a gtx295. in fact, it beats it in some titles/applications. it all depends on coding, and how the game engine/application uses each individual architecture. ati drivers are fine from what ive experienced, ive never had a driver problem with any of my ati or nvidia products, i really dont understand why everyone complains lol, but i guess ive been lucky. though it is true ati are still refining crossfire drivers for the 5970, it still performs ok. we will probably see some performance jumps in the near future as im sure ati want the best performance out of there top card.
     unfortunatly for ati, there architecture is not programmed for most of the time, the only games ive seen that really use ati's stream processors fully are any source engined game (half life 2, team fortress 2,you can even enable tessalation on TF2 if you know the code lol) and dirt 2. there are probably a few others, but it is mostly irrelivant. nvidia cards are programmed for so often, that everyone now has a habbit of just assuming nvidia cards will always out perform ati. it has to do with popularity and advertising, thats basicaly the only reason for nvidia fan boys/girls. mind you i know there are ati fan boys/girls, i am neither. i welcome the competition that 2 companies struggling for dominance and sales brings. to say one is better than the other is a matter of opinion, since what is better for one person might not be what another one considers best. On the hardware level, one may be more superior in design or more efficient, or even faster, but it all comes down to the person on the receiving end. just thought i would provide perspective on the subject, since there seem to be some very biased people here, though they are entitled to there opinion, which is what they consider best.

Call me crazy again but here's my thoughts.

1) ATI 5-10% faster                   +2 ATI
2) Nvidia better driver support   +1 Nvidia
3) EVGA "Lifetime warrenty"      +1 Nvidia
4) PhysX                                   +1 Nvidia
5) Direct X 11 Both                    0
6) No need for black screan fixes on Oblivion +1 ATI

Hmm, close. Now a $500 price tag for an EVGA GTX490 or what ever they're gonna call it will be a +2 and make nVidia the undisputed champ. But just my opinion.

2+ gigs of Vram on a single GPU card will be icing on the cake.

Supply and demand meets where price = performance. Anything else is just a waste for benching numbers that still don't get you laid.

russader@hotmail.com
3) EVGA "Lifetime warrenty"      +1 Nvidia

That should be +1 EVGA.  Also, my 3 5870s have "Double" Lifetime Warranty.  This means that I can sell the card(s) to someone else and transfer my lifetime warranty to that person through XFX.  XFX is the only company to do this.

EVGA's lifetime warranty has nothing to do with Nvidia.  EVGA is just a great company, and that is why anyone choosing an Nvidia GPU should go with EVGA. Anyone wanting an ATI GPU should always go with XFX.

3dflyer88

I am still wandering why the 5870 is being compared to the gtx 480. The 480 has 512 cores while the 5870 has something like 320 so the 5970 has 640 you would think the 5970 and 480 would be a bit more suitable for comparison. And the 470 would be comparable to the 5870(this is what i think anyway) If the fact that there could never be a multi gpu card is true then we should put flagship against flagship. The question becomes whats better tri sli gtx 480 or quad 5970. Just my 2 cents i guess. 1536(3 gf100)cores vs 1280(2 5970)pretty crazy.

The 5870 has 1600SP rather than 320SP.  I don't know where you got that number.  The 5970 has 3200SP.  The GTX 480 has 512SP.  ATI and Nvidia use completely different architectures where Nvidia's is more efficient and can get an equal amount of work done with a fewer number of more powerful shader/stream processors while ATI, at least with their last 3-4 series of cards, needs a higher number of less powerful shader/stream processors to compete.

You can't compare ATI v Nvidia by the number of SP the cards have.  You can however compare Nvidia to Nvidia/ATI to ATI in that regard.

luv2increase
That should be +1 EVGA.  Also, my 3 5870s have "Double" Lifetime Warranty.  This means that I can sell the card(s) to someone else and transfer my lifetime warranty to that person through XFX.  XFX is the only company to do this.

EVGA's lifetime warranty has nothing to do with Nvidia.  EVGA is just a great company, and that is why anyone choosing an Nvidia GPU should go with EVGA. Anyone wanting an ATI GPU should always go with XFX.

True, EVGA and XFX are a couple of the companies I actually trust to take care of their customers.

3dflyer88

i was not referring to sp? but to cores on the gpu itself. No idea where sp came from

Well, the GTX260, 275, 280 & 285 has a SINGLE GPU Core.
The 4870, 5770, 5850, 5870 has a SINGLE GPU Core.

The GTX260 has a 192SP version and 216SP version.  The GTX275, 280 & 285 have 240SP.

The 4870 has 800SP.  The 5770 has 800SP.  The 5850 has 1440SP.  The 5870 has 1600SP.


The only cards with more than a SINGLE GPU Core are the 9800GX2, GTX295, 4850x2, 4870x2, 5970.  All those cards have TWO GPU Cores.


The "SP" stands for:
1. Shader Processor
2. Shader Core

The GTX480 will have 512SP.  It will go up against the 5870 which has 1600SP.  Think of them as "mini-cores"...  Although, the GTX480 and 5870 both only have a SINGLE GPU Core.

kick arse! it's a whole lot faster than the 285. funny how the tables turned and ATI already has their dual GPU card out. It's good they're catching up. The competition keeps heating up.

best thread ever. I've just been sitting here lol'ing my head off, alot of heat with this topic I detect.

regarding the 295 vs the 5870; for what it's worth unless you're rocking an i7 with a bit of head room, a 5870 will outperform a 295 on almost every system. that is fact from all the testing I've seen in the last couple of months. the 295 is a good card but for most people not on i7 the 5870 is a better choice. if you are using i7, IDK, I could see the 295 being slightly ahead but then again it's more expensive too. even on a q6600 running at 3.6ghz the 5870 is still better performing, on my system the 5870 blew my 295 away, completely and without any recourse (I'm using an e8500 at 4.2ghz).

as for fermi, we've just got more speculation to deal with thanks to this dubious benching test, I don't, and won't, believe any of it until one of you guys that I trust has got one and has has a chance to mess around with it. benchmarks are notorious for being bias to one side or the other by what drivers, games and systems are being used. in my experience it doesn't pay to even listen to this type of mindless testing.

and LMFAO at whoever it was saying nvidia's drivers are better....just exactly what planet have you been on? nothing but crap for the last 6 months at least, and maybe more. the only pack that's worked for me and my 295 is the fabled 191.07 suicide driver pack for the nf200 chip, nothing they've made since or before has even down- clocked my 295 properly :D

GUYS, I really can't wait til fermi's out...I might not be buying one but this forum is gonna turn into world war 3! lol fun times dudes.