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Helpful ReplyNo CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type

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n9zn-extra
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2011/11/13 01:16:43 (permalink)
I need to install fans on a Black Ice GTX360 and don't know anything about the fans I should get. MY understanding with this radiator is that it never quits scaling as RPM is increased. There must be a point where additional RMP adds so little in temp reduction that it becomes more or less a noise increase only.
 
I would like to be able to run fans at slow speeds to eliminate noise and at higher speeds to enhance cooling if the noise is not horrendous.
 
Am I that much better of with 6 fans on the GTX360 in push/pull?
Will I see nearly the same performance from 3 fans in pull?
Is there any advantage to using any fan in push?
 
I have heard that push alone leaves a void spot in the center, reducing CFM and air contact across the radiator surface.. 
 
What are your comments on fan noise, is there an optimal RPM (CFM) for 120 fans in the three modes (push, pull, push/pull)? What is everyone doing noise wise?
 
Is there a specific type fan that works better with radiators, Yate Loon, Gentle Typhoon, Etc?
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direraptor22
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 01:54:00 (permalink)
n9zn-extra

I need to install fans on a Black Ice GTX360 and don't know anything about the fans I should get. MY understanding with this radiator is that it never quits scaling as RPM is increased. There must be a point where additional RMP adds so little in temp reduction that it becomes more or less a noise increase only.

I would like to be able to run fans at slow speeds to eliminate noise and at higher speeds to enhance cooling if the noise is not horrendous.

Am I that much better of with 6 fans on the GTX360 in push/pull?
Will I see nearly the same performance from 3 fans in pull?
Is there any advantage to using any fan in push?

I have heard that push alone leaves a void spot in the center, reducing CFM and air contact across the radiator surface.. 

What are your comments on fan noise, is there an optimal RPM (CFM) for 120 fans in the three modes (push, pull, push/pull)? What is everyone doing noise wise?

Is there a specific type fan that works better with radiators, Yate Loon, Gentle Typhoon, Etc?

 
Here's a good guide to read for you
 
http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=592209


“The fascination of flight can't be expressed with words. But it really lies beyond the capabilities of human endeavor. Once you've experienced it, you'll never be able to forget it.” - Friedrich Oblessor
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n9zn-extra
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 01:55:14 (permalink)
Thanks I am on it now.
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 02:10:51 (permalink)
I prefer Gentle Typhoons because they generally produce more static pressure (which is good for radiators) and run quieter than most other fans.


“The fascination of flight can't be expressed with words. But it really lies beyond the capabilities of human endeavor. Once you've experienced it, you'll never be able to forget it.” - Friedrich Oblessor
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n9zn-extra
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 05:25:30 (permalink)
direraptor22

I prefer Gentle Typhoons because they generally produce more static pressure (which is good for radiators) and run quieter than most other fans.


I likely missed a question or two but this is enough for a single post. I may learn much more after digesting the complete article the first person responding pointed me to. After this I think any additional post will be much shorter.

OK, this is great information, I should be looking for the highest static pressure to CFM or RPM ratio regardless of CFM or RPM a fan produces. In briefly looking over the article recommended by the previous poster I noted there are different air flow patterns generated by differently designed fans. Since the fans will be mounted directly against the radiator, or slightly offset with a shroud will airflow direction be a concern in this type application?
 
I would suspect in a pull configuration the direction of exhausted fan air would yield no benefit unless obstructed. When a push/pull or push only configuration is used this is a little less clear. Having air flow directed straight ahead when entering the radiator would seem to provide little or no airflow around the edges of the round fan openings and cause the radiator surfaces in those areas outside the fan blade opening to be under cooled. Possibly this is only a concern in push configuration assuming a push / pull configuration would have the pulling fans drawing air from the entire radiator surface, this is something I may be very wrong on. Any ideas on this topic (I also need to digest the fan article more throughly)?
 
My thoughts and question about air flow direction may also have an impact on static pressures generated within the cooling fins of the radiator, by lessening static pressure with a broader air flow pattern. I am a little confused about this, but will heed your word that increased static pressure is good, I thought higher pressures would increase heat from friction, in a much less extreme fashion, as the space shuttle generates very high heat from air pressure on re-entry, not a very good comparison but hopefully you understand my thought. My thinking may be way off on this subject and I may not understand static pressure effects on a radiator.
 
Your information is getting me closer to the correct fan selection and I still have questions over where increased air flow becomes more of a noise issue than yielding significant additional cooling. I want as much cooling as I can reasonably get, as an example if my temps dropped by several degrees with each 500 RPM increase up to 2500 RPM that would be significant. If I observed temps dropping by only tenths of a degree for each 500 RPM increase after 2500 RPM that would indicate a shift from adding significant additional cooling to adding significant additional noise with very little cooling benefit. Have you developed any understanding in this area where cooling increase dramatically tapers and noise increase becomes more significant?
 
I also have seen noticed the Gentle Typhoon (GT) fans operate at lower RPM than others like server fans. Obviously server fans run on high speed will be the most noisy, have the highest static pressures, and may continue significant cooling to noise ratios beyond what the GT fans deliver. Do you have any observations in this area, would server fans provide far greater cooling results and can they be tamed via a controller to quieter speeds, like the GT fans, or is this asking to much of a server fan? I may have to contact the manufacturer about static pressures at slower speeds using server fans to do a comparison with GT.
 
Lastly there is the issue of fan header maximum amperage, I thought I read somewhere the motherboard headers were limited at 2 amps which is well below what many server fans require at full load. It would be nice if I could tie the motherboard fan headers to the radiator cooling fans and increase fan speed when temps climbed on motherboard components. Do you know if there are other ways of coordinating fan speed with component temperatures ( via software) without placing additional temperature sensors in the cooling system near components and purchasing additional hardware? 
post edited by n9zn-extra - 2011/11/13 05:28:55
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boredgunner
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 09:06:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Push/pull is a good idea if you can fit it.  Shrouds are a good idea in order to avoid having that void spot you mentioned.  Shrouds for me start with a 120mm x 25mm fan, and then I remove the motor hub, blades, and support, thus leaving me with just the frame.  Since your radiator is on the thick side with high FPI, you'll want higher performance fans.  You have a number of good options though.
 
San Ace 9G1212H1011 - 120mm x 38mm, specs are listed, commonly used on thick/high FPI radiators in demanding loops
 
San Ace 9G1212H4011 - 120mm x 25mm, smaller version of the fan listed above.  CFM is slightly less, static pressure is slightly less (6.5278 mmH2O vs 7.1882 mmH2O), and noise level is 1 DBA higher.  Not a huge difference, and it's a great choice if you can't fit 120mm x 38mm fans.
 
Scythe GentleTyphoon AP-30 - This 120mm x 25mm fan is a great option if you feel the need for even more cooling power.  At 44 DBA it isn't THAT much louder, but CFM is higher as well as static pressure (9.652 mmH2O).
 
The reason I recommended those fans is due to their noise profiles, how well they undervolt (no clicks or whines will be present), and of course their performance.  I have experience with San Ace, but not GentleTyphoons so those remarks are just going by reviews and other comments on them by highly experienced people.
 
n9zn-extra 

I would suspect in a pull configuration the direction of exhausted fan air would yield no benefit unless obstructed. When a push/pull or push only configuration is used this is a little less clear. Having air flow directed straight ahead when entering the radiator would seem to provide little or no airflow around the edges of the round fan openings and cause the radiator surfaces in those areas outside the fan blade opening to be under cooled. Possibly this is only a concern in push configuration assuming a push / pull configuration would have the pulling fans drawing air from the entire radiator surface, this is something I may be very wrong on. Any ideas on this topic (I also need to digest the fan article more throughly)?

 
From my testing, and from most others' results, push vs pull hardly makes a difference in any scenario, but pull is said to be a tiny bit better (or results are the same).  
 
Running a push/pull setup usually lowers temperatures, either by a few degress or by a bit more (my reduction was 3-5 degrees Celsius after adding an identical fan, more on this later).  This is very dependent on the setup you're running - radiator, fans, and what's on your loop (how much heat).  If you can't fit push/pull, you shouldn't worry too much.  Maybe then you can go for the more powerful AP-30s.  
 
n9zn-extra 
Have you developed any understanding in this area where cooling increase dramatically tapers and noise increase becomes more significant? 

 
I may have developed some vague understanding, and I've noticed that this depends highly on your setup.  If you're running your radiator close to its limits, then you may notice a reduction in temperatures even when you get to very high performance fans.  On the contrary, if your radiator is overkill (lets say you're only using that rad for a CPU loop), then very high performance fans will not help temperatures much at all.
 
I'll use my PC as en example.  I run a Prolimatech Megahalems CPU cooler and an Intel Core i5 760 running at 4.2 GHz, with 1.30625 VCore.  This CPU with this overclock now runs closer to 190W (up from the 95W standard TDP category, more info on this matter can be found here).  A heat sink of this size with an average fan can only dissipate the heat effectively from a 200W CPU or so.  I used to run a pair of Scythe Slipstream (terrible) 120mm x 25mm and my CPU cores would exceed 80 degrees Celsius under load.  I swapped to one Panaflo U1 120mm x 38mm fan (2705 RPM/114.7 CFM/45.5 DBA, about 9 mmH2O static pressure), and my core temps lowered to the mid 70s.  I got a second Panaflo, and temps were in the lower 70s.  Now with my Nidec VA450DC (5300 RPM/220 CFM/64 DBA, about 21 mmH2O static pressure) my core temps barely exceed 60 degrees Celsius (core 1 or 2 might not even exceed it, depending on the ambient temperature, dust buildup and other things).  
 
On the other hand, when I ran an Intel Core 2 DUO E8400 and some AIO water cooler, swapping the stock fan (no idea on performance) to a pair of Yate Loon high speeds did not make much of a difference because of how much headroom was left.  
 

n9zn-extra

Lastly there is the issue of fan header maximum amperage, I thought I read somewhere the motherboard headers were limited at 2 amps which is well below what many server fans require at full load. It would be nice if I could tie the motherboard fan headers to the radiator cooling fans and increase fan speed when temps climbed on motherboard components. Do you know if there are other ways of coordinating fan speed with component temperatures ( via software) without placing additional temperature sensors in the cooling system near components and purchasing additional hardware?  
 

 
Most fan headers are rated for 1A or 12W.  All of the fans I listed above are well below this rating (highest is the GentleTyphoon AP-30 at 0.56A or 6.72W), so you can use them with any fan header.  As for coordinating fan speeds with component temperatures, try Speedfan.
post edited by boredgunner - 2011/11/13 09:11:34


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n9zn-extra
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 09:36:57 (permalink)
boredgunner

Push/pull is a good idea if you can fit it.  Shrouds are a good idea in order to avoid having that void spot you mentioned.  Shrouds for me start with a 120mm x 25mm fan, and then I remove the motor hub, blades, and support, thus leaving me with just the frame.  Since your radiator is on the thick side with high FPI, you'll want higher performance fans.  You have a number of good options though.


I promised a shorter post next time around so here goes.
 
THANK YOU, for dropping by and filling in some blanks, providing some great suggestions on fans, and various other comments.
 
Fortunate for me, I am using one of the accordion type radiator mounts from Koolance on the rear of my PC so I have enough room to stack 4 38mm fans deep on the back of the PC if I got that insane. I am really glad I made that selection and the only thing that will hold me back is how sturdy that radiator mount is. I can say it is pretty sturdy in stock configuration and if needed a few spot welds would send it to the superman class of mounts.
I was looking at the Delta 256CFM fans in PUSH/PULL. Surely they would cool hot steel if needed and my radiator will be well over half way to saturation cooling NB, SB, V-regs, CPU and 1 or 2 dual GPU cards. I may even throw in some memory coolers since that radiator is rated at 1400 watts and see what happens.
 
I will do some more reading and looking at fans then come back if I run into other questions, you answered the ones I had and more, for that I thank you again and again. Thumbs up you deserve every one of those and more!
 
After this if fans don't do the whole job I guess going to a supplementary TEC stack may be next.
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boredgunner
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 10:07:18 (permalink)
Glad I could help!  Those Deltas will sound like hair dryers so there's your warning.  


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n9zn-extra
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 10:13:07 (permalink)
boredgunner

Glad I could help!  Those Deltas will sound like hair dryers so there's your warning.  

YOU HAVE BEEN NOMINATED FOR A BLUE RIBBON!
Warning well taken, I am going to look at what you recommended instead.
 
6 hairdryers would have me hanging from rafters or biteing small dogs so I think I will stay away from that. (My small CHIHUAHUA nodded in agreement!)
post edited by n9zn-extra - 2011/11/13 10:18:38
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boredgunner
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 10:23:28 (permalink)
I found some videos of it.  Here is one of those Deltas.
 

 
Here are 12.
 

 
That's about the same noise as my CPU fan.  


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direraptor22
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/13 19:46:27 (permalink)
boredgunner is officially the "fan man"


“The fascination of flight can't be expressed with words. But it really lies beyond the capabilities of human endeavor. Once you've experienced it, you'll never be able to forget it.” - Friedrich Oblessor
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/14 06:22:15 (permalink)
direraptor22

boredgunner is officially the "fan man"


+1
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n9zn-extra
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Re:No CLUE! FANS?? RPM / CFM / Push / Pull / Both / Decibels / type 2011/11/14 13:26:51 (permalink)
EVGATech_DaveB

direraptor22

boredgunner is officially the "fan man"


+1


I could not agree more! Exactly the reason he got a BLUE RIBBON for his great comments in this thread.
 
I know quite a bit about computers but like many of us I am not an expert with fans, having a person who chose to specialize in this area is a boost for the entire community on EVGA forums and is very appreciated!
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