thinkfly
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I knew that the GTX590 would share the same fate as the HD5970, for GPU power bottlenecked by not having affluent VRAM. Thus I avoided quad-SLI of GTX590s, and avoided SLI of GTX580 1.5GB. Today I grabbed a GTX590 from my girlfriend and did a comparison in my machine with a pair of GTX580 3GB in SLI (downclocked to match the GTX590 clocks). That is, the same clock for core and memory, the same rig, driver, OS, game versions etc. I can't say such comparison is perfect, as there's still a difference of the PCI-E lanes used by both GF110 GPUs in each group, but this is so far the best I can do. I thought it would take some time to actually meet games that can exceed 1.5GB VRAM usage at 1920x1200, but surprisingly this just happened so fast. There have been several candidates already: 1) Total War Shogun 2, with DX11 patch and the "Rise of the Samuri" DLC installed. The graphics of the main game menu would eat more than 1.5GB VRAM already, according to MSI Afterburner readings. To exercise how this affects the real game play, simply enter the "Advanced Land Battle" tutorial. When playing the game at max settings with a setup of only 1.5GB VRAM per GPU, there will be a log file generated in the folder %appdata%\The Creative Assembly\Shogun2\logs: For more details read this thread. To enforce the game engine to use 8AA instead of 4AA, an override of the parameter in the script file is required: change the value of gfx_video_memory to 2147483648, and use NTFS privilege to forbid the game engine to revert the modification. 2) Crysis 2, with the official DX11 patch and high res texture patch installed. When the player wears the nano suit for the first time and walks outdoors, the VRAM usage can exceed 1.5GB. 3) RAGE, with the 9th Oct patch from Steam, and rageconfig.cfg to enable 16k texture and 16AF, the VRAM usage can exceed 1.5GB. 4) World of Warcraft Cataclysm, in DX11 mode, in Orgrimmar during peak time (at least 40 players in sight), start two instances concurrently (e.g. use a character to do enchanting for another character or simply mule items), the VRAM usage can exceed 1.5GB. 5) BF3 beta, as mentioned by many players already, the VRAM usage can exceed 1.5GB. I could not find a precise way to test WOW (with repeated scenes), but I can tell that the lag spikes / stuttering that occurs especially when the player turns around quickly (rotating the camera quickly) are pretty obvious on the GTX590, but not happening at all on the GTX580 3GB SLI. I haven't downloaded BF3 beta but I've heard about many players complaining about lag spikes / stuttering already, though I don't know if such subjective claims can be trusted. For the first three games I've carried out some tests myself: This is the Frametimes measure. When the average fps and the adhoc min fps cannot tell a difference between two groups, it is necessary to look into each second carefully to identify the lag spikes / stuttering. Techreport used the same method to identify microstuttering, though microstuttering caused by CrossfireXis not the same as the old skool stuttering caused by VRAM shortage I'm talking about here today. As my observations the GTX590 are more vulnerable to lag spikes / stuttering in Crysis 2 and Shogun 2. It is another story in RAGE with 16k texture and 16AF. The GTX590 simply cannot afford such settings. The game freezes at single-digit fps and fails to load all the textures: While such config is a piece of cake for the GTX580 3GB: Conclusions: if you trust that I haven't manipulated the data, then I have already proved the following (in)formally: a) If you can see a VRAM usage reading approaching or above a certain capacity of dedicated VRAM, then the card is more vulnerable to lag spikes / stuttering; b) 1.5GB VRAM cannot satisfy those who don't care about the actual gains of image quality, but only like the feeling of being able to max out every possible graphics setting in every game. Don't take me wrong - I do know that there is minimal difference between 4AA and 8AA under native resolution, and almost zero difference between 8k texture and 16k texture. If you are a practical person, just turn down the AA level and 1.5GB should be fine for 1920x1200 resolution. The question of "Is 1.5GB VRAM enough for 1920x1200?" is just like a question of "Is 12 Mpixels enough for full-frame digital cameras?". Only you know the right answer for yourself, because you will be the one to use it.
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maniacvvv
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 19:11:02
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Crysis2, Shogun and Rage.. are all extremely poor games to use for testing. They all have memory leaks, have known bugs in certain graphics settings and all of them behave differently using different driversets. Also 1920x1200 is a fringe group, and 1920x1080 (and below) represents the majority of users, and at that res the testing results are different. Comparing a single slot 590 with (2) 3gig 580's in true SLI, is not really a comparision at all in terms of VRAM loading and performance. A better test would have been a 590 vs (2) 1.5gig 580's, now that would have really shown off the compromise of the 590 much better. Yes, 3gigs is looking to be the new standard going forward, but to make claims that 1.5gigs of VRAM is below spec, you will need to perform your testing on a better subset of games that is more established with Nvidia driversets, and games that do not contain known memory leaks and other serious game engine issues. *So far (knock on wood) I have not encountered any game that required more than 1.5gigs of VRAM using 1920x1080. Even with BF3 (and all its leaks and issues) 1.4 was never exceeded and the defaults of "pre" and "post" MSAA/FXAA were certainly in conflict in the buffer.... (I think a 20% VRAM reduction in the official release is probable or more) You are to be commemded for attempting to show some of the current issues in gaming today. And I centainly would agree that for new releases with bugs and leaks ( and with new post release drivers) 1.5gigs is probably lacking at the stated screen res... It should also be pointed out that using a overlay for testing, skewed the results and should not have been used. Recorded graphs will not effect the test results vs using overlays and/or a sidebyside USB display, which is why the most known testers do not use them. Also, pure testing "results" require clean OS installs and cannot really be done on a users daily use build by simply swapping cards.
post edited by maniacvvv - 2011/10/15 20:08:16
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thexcodec
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 19:39:27
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I got sli 580 HC2 1.5 GB. I play all games maxed @ 1920x1200. Not only do I not get those problems with the exact games you are testing, but I get PERFECTLY smooth game play. My Vram does get full 99-100% on each card but I do not get any issues with textures not loading, or lag spikes.
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 20:58:54
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carye
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 21:25:30
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@thinkfly It amazes me how many times you feel it necessary to re-iterate the same information. 
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 21:33:18
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Ok... I am really tired and probably not going to add anything of great value here... But I thought the 590 was a pair of 1.5gVrams equaling the 3G... So in essence it is still just a 1.5g?
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cabbage
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 21:53:50
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wdflyer
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/15 22:03:01
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OK Fly...what part of this constitutes "Formal Proof", was there some type of scientific (or even legitimate) testing going on here regarding VRAM being the driving factor on the stuttering issue? The article you linked to did not even cover any VRAM caused microstutter issues at all, in fact, it actually says: Both AMD and Nvidia prefer a technique for divvying up the workload between two GPUs known as alternate frame rendering (AFR). As the name indicates, AFR involves assigning the first GPU in a team to render the even-numbered frames, while the second GPU handles the odd-numbered ones, so frames are produced by the two GPUs in an interleaved fashion. (AFR can also be employed with three or four GPUs, with one frame being assigned to each GPU in sequence.) SLI and CrossFire support other load-balancing methods, such as split-frame rendering, but those methods aren't favored, because they don't scale as well in terms of FPS averages. No mention of VRAM causing stutter in the entire article, but it is apparent now why the 590 has microstutter and the 580 doesn't. It is due to the AFR employed between the two GPUs of the 590, which wouldn't happen in the 580 as it is a single GPU card, again, not a VRAM issue. If you actually take the time to read the entire article, it's clear that the article attributes the microstutter issues to something other than VRAM, as in AFR. Sorry, I just take offense when I feel someone is insulting my intelligence by not having read (or understood) their own referenced source material and then try to pawn it off as proof of something it's clearly not.
post edited by wdflyer - 2011/10/15 22:32:41
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thinkfly
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 03:04:29
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^^ @ wdflyer: you clearly did not read what I wrote carefully before you started to attack  As expected you have less than or equal to 1.5GB vram per GPU lol
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 03:08:41
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Afterburner Ok... I am really tired and probably not going to add anything of great value here... But I thought the 590 was a pair of 1.5gVrams equaling the 3G... So in essence it is still just a 1.5g? Yes, the GTX590 is really just two GPUs with 1.5GB. It's not a true 3GB setup. It's why I always recommend GTX580 3GB SLI over a GTX590 to anyone NVIDIA Surround. You'll VRAM bottleneck. I VRAM bottleneck all the time on my GTX470's. My 5870 E6 2GB cards even VRAM bottleneck depending upon the game and settings. VRAM capacity is the "dirty little secret" with all triple-head gaming rigs anymore. It's not really a "definitive" thing until you are triple-head though. It's where it really can show. So much about triple-head gaming is a compromise though that often this is just explained away as just another thing to accommodate by dialing down settings. With the bottom fallen out of commodity RAM market in the last year there is no real reason why they can't just slap double capacity ram by default on these cards now. I'd really like to see 3GB be the norm for the GTX670 and GTX680 series cards next year.
post edited by Brad_Hawthorne - 2011/10/16 03:18:49
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wdflyer
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 07:42:04
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thinkfly ^^
@wdflyer: you clearly did not read what I wrote carefully before you started to attack As expected you have less than or equal to 1.5GB vram per GPU lol
Oh, I read what you wrote, an unlike you I actually read the article that you used as a reference. The simple fact of the matter is this isn't formal proof of anything but preconceived notions and twising of facts in an attempt to prove you're point. I'm not saying 1.5GB is enough or that 3GB is required, but I actually took the time to read what you wrote as well as what you used as to support your theory, er, uh "proof".
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SirWaWa
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 07:42:18
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thexcodec I got sli 580 HC2 1.5 GB. I play all games maxed @ 1920x1200. Not only do I not get those problems with the exact games you are testing, but I get PERFECTLY smooth game play. My Vram does get full 99-100% on each card but I do not get any issues with textures not loading, or lag spikes. same here
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kalyyy
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 07:59:31
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1.5 gb is good for 1080p or 1920*1200 no need more, see reviews etc.. 3 gb for surround or resolution>1920*1200
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 08:19:48
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kalyyy 1.5 gb is good for 1080p or 1920*1200 no need more, see reviews etc.. 3 gb for surround or resolution>1920*1200 This is not completely true. FACT... Vram has been as important to our needs as the core Mhz is. The difference today vs. a year ago is it does not matter where you set your core Mhz at if the Vram is the bottleneck. This is no different than when we went from 256MB of Vram to 512MB of Vram. The problem is folks trying to compare "Old" knowledge and information to current events. While 90% of the systems out there will be just fine with 1500MB of Vram today... Over the next six months you will see why a few of us are trying to "Help" those that are buying new cards today by encouraging them to get the higher Vram cards. Additionally... There have been a few well know members here that have done side by side proving that... - Our systems (Via the drivers) now reduce settings in game to allow a more seamless gaming experience.
- Those have 1250MB of Vram will normally only see 1100-1235MB of it used in game. And 1500MB users will see 1100-1485 in game. With the SAME settings and system specs. Yet 2500MB and 3000MB users normally see 1100-1800MB with the same settings and system specs. This is the drivers doing their job.
- The CPU is as critical of a component in this process as the Vram is. Yet many want to claim it is not. Just research the GTX285 systems on this forum and see who has better performance in games and benching. The old 790 systems or the new i7's...
- We are simply at another crossroad. Some can see it, others are in denial.
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Sumazi
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 08:33:54
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VRAM is a problem right now. My next card purchases will be ones with considerably more VRAM. I'm tired of maxing out my VRAM.
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dukenuke88
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 08:47:47
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Sumazi VRAM is a problem right now. My next card purchases will be ones with considerably more VRAM. I'm tired of maxing out my VRAM. agreed...i hope the next generations of cards come with 3gb as standard on their high end cards....and 2gb as standard in their mid level cards
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 08:50:13
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dukenuke88 Sumazi VRAM is a problem right now. My next card purchases will be ones with considerably more VRAM. I'm tired of maxing out my VRAM. agreed...i hope the next generations of cards come with 3gb as standard on their high end cards....and 2gb as standard in their mid level cards I am betting it will be 2gb standard and 4gb instead of three...
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dukenuke88
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 08:55:52
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Afterburner dukenuke88 Sumazi VRAM is a problem right now. My next card purchases will be ones with considerably more VRAM. I'm tired of maxing out my VRAM. agreed...i hope the next generations of cards come with 3gb as standard on their high end cards....and 2gb as standard in their mid level cards I am betting it will be 2gb standard and 4gb instead of three... you talking about the mid level cards or high end cards?
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thinkfly
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 09:02:18
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wdflyer thinkfly ^^ @wdflyer: you clearly did not read what I wrote carefully before you started to attack As expected you have less than or equal to 1.5GB vram per GPU lol Oh, I read what you wrote, an unlike you I actually read the article that you used as a reference. The simple fact of the matter is this isn't formal proof of anything but preconceived notions and twising of facts in an attempt to prove you're point. I'm not saying 1.5GB is enough or that 3GB is required, but I actually took the time to read what you wrote as well as what you used as to support your theory, er, uh "proof". First of all, go back and read carefully, I already stated that the old skool stuttering / lag spikes I'm talking about here, is different from the microstuttering caused by CrossfireX. I have read that article from techreport a long time ago and I probably know more about AFR than you think. I even had email communications with the author of the article. The author agreed with my opinion, i.e. vram shortage can increase the probability of lag spikes. He even mentioned that in his article there was a figure (560 Ti 1GB SLI fails Bulletstorm) showing the vram issue. However, in order to proof vram impacts, you'll need to compare between the same core (in my case, GF110) with different vram size. I honestly have no idea why you would think I have mistaken the lag spikes/stuttering with the microstuttering. These are two different things. Microstuttering comes with a period, i.e., alternative frames does not synchronize well, making the frametimes not evenly distributed. Meanwhile, the lag spikes I'm talking about here, due to vram shortage, is a random event, which happens when the system is doing thrashing. Both cases need "Frametime Analysis" to investigate, because average fps or adhoc min fps fails to show these phenomena. Is it not clear?
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 09:08:53
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dukenuke88 Afterburner dukenuke88 Sumazi VRAM is a problem right now. My next card purchases will be ones with considerably more VRAM. I'm tired of maxing out my VRAM. agreed...i hope the next generations of cards come with 3gb as standard on their high end cards....and 2gb as standard in their mid level cards I am betting it will be 2gb standard and 4gb instead of three... you talking about the mid level cards or high end cards? Mid's up... Low end is and always will be "Last gen's" cleanup crew...
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thinkfly
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 09:31:16
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wdflyer No mention of VRAM causing stutter in the entire article, but it is apparent now why the 590 has microstutter and the 580 doesn't. It is due to the AFR employed between the two GPUs of the 590, which wouldn't happen in the 580 as it is a single GPU card, again, not a VRAM issue. If you actually take the time to read the entire article, it's clear that the article attributes the microstutter issues to something other than VRAM, as in AFR. Sorry, I just take offense when I feel someone is insulting my intelligence by not having read (or understood) their own referenced source material and then try to pawn it off as proof of something it's clearly not. You did notice that I was comparing a GTX590 agains GTX580 SLI? The fact that you thought I was comparing a GTX590 against a single GTX580 already shows that you have no idea what is called "Frametime Analysis". Tell me, what plot of Frametimes would you expect, if I was comparing a GTX590 against a single GTX580? Usually if you don't read someone's work carefully before you make comments (or even attack), you show little respect to him. I don't mind, as what I'm doing may hurt the pride of those with SLI of 1.5GB (or less) vram per GPU. Believe me, I've been through a lot more vram wars than you think (in different forums, in different languages). This is why I use GF110 1.5GB SLI vs GF110 3GB SLI to do the comparison in the same rig, to minimise the number of variables. Ask better questions / make better points if you want a good discussion here. For example, question the accuracy of my data, question why there is no error bar, question why there is no advanced statistical view. Even if you want to troll, make sure you understand the discussion.
post edited by thinkfly - 2011/10/16 09:55:07
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007vsMagua
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 09:41:24
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+1 to thinkfly for making an effort to address an issue that is on many minds, irregardless of whether the data is accurate or not. Brad_Hawthorn is right when he mentions the lower costs of memory and that there is no reason not to produce all cards in the future that will meet future needs.
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 09:53:53
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Yeah this vram issue sucks, I will definitely be getting atleast 3GB gpu's next time around.
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kalyyy
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 10:27:59
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future games are console games so we don't need more than 1.5gb for most of the games at 1080 hightest settings (example; skyrim,la noire, the new nfs, batman, i tested bf3 beta with only one 580 gtx 1.5gb compared to one 580 gtw 3gb i don't see any improvments) maybe metro last light, stalker 2 and far cry 3 will need more vram but kepler will be out in 2012 so i suggest you to wait 600 series
post edited by kalyyy - 2011/10/16 10:31:14
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Johnny_Utah
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 11:04:31
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I agree with the next generation of cards from Nvidia, we will most likely see the upper echelon of cards with a minimum of 2GB. I just wish I was smart enough to think about this when I purchased my 3 1.5's at release;) Thanks Thinkfly for posting your info.
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Reddawne
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 11:31:47
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I'm running 1920 x 1080, and with Crysis 2 on max settings (with the DirectX 11, etc) my vram exceeds 1700MB. I will also always wait and purchase the next gen gpu with the highest vram.
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Johnny_Utah
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 11:38:47
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Reddawne I'm running 1920 x 1080, and with Crysis 2 on max settings (with the DirectX 11, etc) my vram exceeds 1700MB. I will also always wait and purchase the next gen gpu with the highest vram. Great point. DX11 games with AA cranked up eat VRAM for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
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gregjc
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 11:51:11
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Remember that just because a game is using so much VRAM, doesn't mean that it NEEDS to load that much VRAM to provide a smooth, consistent gameplay experience. For instance, I have used 1.25gb GTX 570s in SLI and have never noticed any kind of sudden lag spikes in the games referenced above. This is at 1080p resolution with higher AA settings. Of course, I don't notice micro stutter either, so maybe I'm not the best judge. A single GTX 570 with 1.25GB of VRAM cost well over $300 in most cases, so I highly doubt that you'll see more than 1 or 2 game developers create games that will hiccup on less than 2/3GB of VRAM in the near future, even at the highest settings. Unless you're using multiple monitors with higher AA settings, of course. So I think the VRAM thing may be an issue within ~2 years, but not in the short term unless you have very specific needs.
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boylerya
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 12:43:28
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I dont have the source but it was a legit article, not somethin off the forums. But I read that the VRAM for the GTX680s is planned to be 2GB. However 2GB is already becoming inadequate for powerhouse video cards and I am going to have to wait a bit longer after the GTX680 release for 4GB when 3GB would have been perfect. But wth, always good to have too much VRAM than too little IMO.
post edited by boylerya - 2011/10/16 12:50:06
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Reddawne
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Re:[In] Formal proof of the limitation of 1.5GB VRAM at 1920x1200 resolution
2011/10/16 13:18:38
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boylerya I dont have the source but it was a legit article, not somethin off the forums. But I read that the VRAM for the GTX680s is planned to be 2GB. However 2GB is already becoming inadequate for powerhouse video cards and I am going to have to wait a bit longer after the GTX680 release for 4GB when 3GB would have been perfect. But wth, always good to have too much VRAM than too little IMO. I'm with you on waiting after the release. If memory serves me correct, the 3gb version of the GTX580 came out 4-5 months after the vanilla? Maybe even wait till the Classified version comes out 8 months after that; I know I will
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