bostonstapler
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So im running a gtx 460 EE 1gb card. And using msi afterburner i managed to go down to .937 volts MAX ( evga eleet let me go down to .950 MAX. ( it was normally .975 max ) And its totally stable, lowerd temps my 4-5 degrees in crysis wich mean my fan probably was running slower ( quieter ) and it was saving energy. I kept my clocks at stock using FPB and everything is fine. So why wont EVGA or other card manufacturers lower their card voltages by default to a lower voltage rather than making it too safe and putting .38 volts too much all around ? Maybe 1/1000th of total cards wont work well because they will have a slight defect. But take that batch and make it run with .940 volts rather than than .937 volts and probably lower. I was limited by the programs. Youll have better cards and less people will complain about fermi being loud and hot. The new gtx590 will prob be hot and noisy ( 2 fans ) but it will prob have .05 too much for a safe voltage for stability. But if you can lower this voltage and still be stable, the new EVGA cards or Nvidia cards for that matter can be less hot and more quiet. And those who want to overclock just increase the voltage ....
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MajorTankz
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/25 12:17:03
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You can never truly know how many chips will be able to run stable with lower voltages because they're always minute differences that occur in the manufacturing process. I assume the defualt voltage settings are the best and most assured to be stable universally among the different chips. As for shipping out cards with different default voltages. That wouldn't be a good idea for the consumers who recieve the high voltage cards. If 2 people buy the exact same product they should get the exact same product. Things like voltage adjustments only come with refreshes or new revisions of cards.
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bostonstapler
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/25 13:31:32
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Just bin the cards that run on higher voltage to be stable and sell it for normal price while the one that can be used with lower voltage has the name LVH ( Low Voltage & Heat ) written on the box and is sold 5-10 $ more . Its the same principle as with the GPU's disabled SM's or the CPU's disabled cores. To me it sounds like a good marketing way to make money. You make a good card and make it better. And when people review the card they will say it is quieter and cooler than the non LVH model but will still have all the performance
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/25 22:26:22
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on my 450 SC, i can lower the voltage to 1.000 Volts from 1.087 Volts and still have it stable at stock clocks. very weird indeed :\
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lehpron
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/25 23:06:49
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All processors suffer from electromigration as soon as they are fired up, this is the amount of electrons that leak from the silicon, it increases by both faster frequencies, higher voltages and longer use. For stock speeds, this rate of loss is kept at bay for by a design votlage such that brand new is somewhat overvolted just so it can survive the minimum lifespan nVidia assigns to all parts. As mentioned, the quality varies per part; some can outlast their design lifespan and take major OC punishment, some don't overclock well, while others cannot run stock properly and get RMA'd. Only a few cards are tested before they are sent out, to test them all would affect how many products get sent out and sold in a timely fashion -- the added cost due to binning is what ends up as premium, think hundreds extra, not 5-10. Prices aren't made up, they reflect what is done and who is intended to get it. Unfortunately, most folks picky about power and heat don't even get midrange, so the market for those wanting a low-voltage version is too shallow to net profit from. Meaning, binning out special ones that use less power as a result of less voltage will cost too much than people willing to buy the special LV cards are willing to spend. It is a delicate balance between how many people there are that demand something and what they are willing to spend with the total costs to do it. If the numbers don't match, companies claim "no market". Not that no one wants it, just not enough.
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bostonstapler
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 11:07:13
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so they overvolt because they dont test them ? I know they test RAM, i though they tested GPU's too
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richj44
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 11:16:53
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bostonstapler
so they overvolt because they dont test them ?
I know they test RAM, i though they tested GPU's too
Nobody tests every single product in a mass production line, they test only a representative sample of the total yield. This allows them to make very accurate estimates of how most of the product is going to perform and in the case of GPUs, what voltages need to be applied. There will be some GPUs that can run on less, and some that need more. The range is set to allow the vast majority to run stable and according to specs.
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lehpron
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 11:56:27
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bostonstapler so they overvolt because they dont test them ? No, they don't overvolt anything. Each piece of silicon die has an operating voltage which isn't discovered until the part is tested at random or we plug them in. It's voltage needs gets higher with time and usage, so it is best to plan ahead than to constantly adjust. This was done on purpose; AMD, Intel and any microprocessor companies does the same things (which is how we interpret good overclocking overhead by not adjusting voltages, it is just a byproduct of setting the voltage high enough so the processor can last through warranty). I suppose you can call it overvolted for being brand new or rarely used, but that's not what nVidia does because whatever keeps the processor stable now won't be the same after heavy use or a few years.
post edited by lehpron - 2011/02/26 12:16:34
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bostonstapler
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 12:07:17
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lehpron bostonstapler so they overvolt because they dont test them ? No, they don't overvolt anything. Each piece of silicon die has an operating voltage which isn't discovered until the part is tested at random or we plug them in. It may have been designed to be some value plus or minus another, but quality isn't 100% to force the same voltage across all video cards. Overvolting would imply an unecessary amount of extra power and heat, nVidia doesn't make mistakes like this. This was done on purpose; AMD, Intel and any microprocessor companies does the same things (which is how we interpret good overclocking overhead by not adjusting voltages, it is just a byproduct of setting the voltage high enough so the processor can last through warranty). thats what i meant when i said they overvolt, my card runs at .937 volts but its default is at .975 . they know most cards would run at .940 volts but not all stable so they make all of them run at .975 because they know that all the cards will run stable then. So in some way they are overvolting.
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MajorTankz
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 14:28:44
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bostonstapler lehpron bostonstapler so they overvolt because they dont test them ? No, they don't overvolt anything. Each piece of silicon die has an operating voltage which isn't discovered until the part is tested at random or we plug them in. It may have been designed to be some value plus or minus another, but quality isn't 100% to force the same voltage across all video cards. Overvolting would imply an unecessary amount of extra power and heat, nVidia doesn't make mistakes like this. This was done on purpose; AMD, Intel and any microprocessor companies does the same things (which is how we interpret good overclocking overhead by not adjusting voltages, it is just a byproduct of setting the voltage high enough so the processor can last through warranty). thats what i meant when i said they overvolt, my card runs at .937 volts but its default is at .975 . they know most cards would run at .940 volts but not all stable so they make all of them run at .975 because they know that all the cards will run stable then. So in some way they are overvolting. They don't know that the card will run stable at .940 volts. What they do know is that it's highly likely that it will at the default .975 for the card's lifetime.
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chrism101
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 16:27:42
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Your card is the exception, the average is what they choose. And truthfully most people buy a card and go the other direction entirely. Very Few care either way.
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 19:44:29
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Wow I feel so dumb for never undervolting before. My 470's stock voltage was 1.025. I'm at .95 and still dropping (every 10 minutes of OC Scanner Stable). My max temp has gone from 81c to 74c. Thanks for opening my eyes to this OP lol. Oh and btw, that 81C was at 100% fans, I'm getting 74c with 84% fans.
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bostonstapler
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/26 22:33:01
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dyno0919 Wow I feel so dumb for never undervolting before. My 470's stock voltage was 1.025. I'm at .95 and still dropping (every 10 minutes of OC Scanner Stable). My max temp has gone from 81c to 74c. Thanks for opening my eyes to this OP lol. Oh and btw, that 81C was at 100% fans, I'm getting 74c with 84% fans. whoah, damn dude. Now thats true undervolting! lol glad i opened your eyes XD
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Re:Why not lower volts by default ?
2011/02/27 18:08:25
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I had two EVGA GTX280's and was able to under volt them as well as have them overclocked at the same time... Stock voltages were 1.183v changed them to 1.125v Stock clocks were 602/1296/1107core/shader/mem fans at 100% temps at 75-80*C OC'd to ~650/1450/1200mhz w/ lower voltage - fans at 100% temps at 65-70*C
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