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Helpful ReplyUpgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB

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Kenshin
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2011/12/04 14:10:09 (permalink)
Okay guys, i was just looking for little guidance. I currently run two eVGA 9800 GTX+ in SLI like the ones linked to below (just put evga website behind; and I have the new version 9800GTX+ 512-P3-N879-AR with the original version 9800GTX+, just saying in case there's a spec difference):
/articles/421.asp
 
And I may have access to an eVGA GTX 560 Ti FPB as shown here in the near future:
/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1561-AR&family=GeForce%20500%20Series%20Family&sw=
 
If I can summarise what I am looking at for you all:
 
                                      9800GTX+ SLI                     560 Ti FPB
Core Clock                      738MHz (x2)                           850Mhz
No. Cores                          128 (x2)                                 384
Memory                             512 (x2)                                1024
Mem Speed                      2200MHz                              4104MHz
Mem Bandwidth               70.4 GB/s                            131.3 GB/s
Shader Clock                   1836MHz                              1700MHz
 
Now I am a serious n0.oB when it comes to understanding the GPU architecture etc. but I take it that the the abosulute final overall spped of the graphics card is the core clock speed and not the core clock speed x no. cores.
 
Assuming this I was wondering if I would really see an appreciable performance differrence in upgrading from the 9800 GTX+ SLI config to the single 560 TI FPB. I mean overall I was thinking that the:
  • 738MHz in SLI would outperform the 850MHz because of the "non-queued" nature of issuing more commands to processor
  • quantity of memory is the same
  • because of the processor outperformance, it would compensate for the memory speed difference
  • the shader clock is faster
 
I know that two cards in SLI DOES NOT necessarily translate to twice the performance, but I was wondering if it gave enough performance to negate upgrading to the 560 Ti FPB.
 
I was wondering if the upgrade might have helped me in playing Batman Arkham Assylum a little more smoothely as well as BF3 ( I only played the beta and I wasn't sure if that was a browser based demo or if that was the actual performance with the engine rendering using the GFX card).
 
Can anyone give me a little guidance. It's appreciated. Thanks.
 

ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 64-Bit
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eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
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agedrig
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 14:29:42 (permalink)
opt for the gtx560 ti 448 core instead, great upgrade, gets you in dx11 and you can use your old card for batman physx.

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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 14:33:12 (permalink)
First off you are talking a couple of different types of direct x cards.  the 9800 is dx 9 right?  The 560ti is dx 11.   Not really apples to apples.  Furthermore what resolution are you wanting to run?  What games?  No. of monitors, etc.  Let us know that too.  
 
 
 
post edited by chiptouz - 2011/12/04 14:36:17

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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 14:42:01 (permalink)
Ok, the card does look decent and it does give DX11 support. However about the PhysX. I am not in the techknow right now, but:
 
  1. I did hear rumour somehwere that PhysX was being discontinued for the newer cards. So is it that the 560 Ti 448 core lacks PhysX support and this is why you recommend keeping the 9800GTX+?
  2. From what you say, you are recommending an Asymmetrical/Hybrid SLI config which I think has to be supported by the motherboard. I don't think my motherboard supports asymmetrical SLI and it doesn't have onboard graphics to support Hybrid SLI, so I don't know if the SLI config would be achieveable.
  3. Failing the SLI config then, you are saying that one 560 Ti 448 Classified IS faster than my current SLI config then.

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agedrig
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 14:45:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
the gtx560 448 will be a faster, smoother and better (dx11) overall gaming experience and worth an upgrade.  with your new 560, you can then use 1 of your 9800 as a dedicated physx card for games like batman to improve perfomance in games that use physx.
 
http://www.geforce.com/Hardware/Technologies/physx

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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 15:00:28 (permalink)
  1. Actually the 9800GTX+ is DX10.
  2. I will usually try to run all my games at 1440 x 980 max; 1024x768 min. with at least 4xAA if possible and all shadow/particle effects where applicable.
  3. I only have one monitor, no space for more than one right now
  4. I have a crapload of games, none of which I expect (or have given me) trouble with my present config. I play Far Cry 2, Crysis, NFSHP, Alien vs Predator, Brink, TF2, SFIV(not alot), Bioshock. There's just too much to call all. You will notice that I have from the list a general mix of old and new. It is only the Batman Arkham assylum where I really started seeing a problem. It is a graphically demanding game. Also as mentioned before, I would like to play BF3, I had also heard that it is graphically intensive (see my original comment for what I said about BF3). I played Crysis 2 Demo and it wasn't as taxing on my system as Batman. Just the FIRST fight scene.... forget that.... the first meeting with joker at the beginning of the game was murder... I was like holy crap! It's kicking the @rse out of my system.
  5. I am talking about DX10 performance in SLI vs the DX11 performance single. Most new games would still provide the backwards compatibility with DX10 for a while (albeit without the eyecandy of 11), so I still have longevity. But are you saying that DX11 is that much more optimised than DX10?
 
Forget about all the eye candy for a minute and look strictly at performance, do you think the 9800 SLI config cannot compete interms of speed performance and rendering at high settings in DX10 compared to the speed and rendering performance of a single card 560 at high settings in DX11?
 
If you all think that maybe my question is a bit puzzlesome and/or not really clear, please ask to me to clarify specifics or tell me exactly what you are trying to understand from me.

ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 15:10:47 (permalink)
Oh, okay okay. So you are saying the 560 Ti as brute force and the 9800GTX+ as pure PhysX is the recommended solution. So it isn't really SLI, it just uses the second card almost like a dedicated PCI-E PhysX card. Okay cool. Thanks for the info and the tech update there. I feel kind of old now.... work has me bonkers.
 
Thanks for the clarification though.
 
P.S.
Now realised from your post that you have the GTX 590......... DAMN YOU you lucky bastard..... >.<
 
agedrig

the gtx560 448 will be a faster, smoother and better (dx11) overall gaming experience and worth an upgrade.  with your new 560, you can then use 1 of your 9800 as a dedicated physx card for games like batman to improve perfomance in games that use physx.




post edited by Kenshin - 2011/12/04 15:12:51

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eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
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boredgunner
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 15:29:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Kenshin 

Ok, the card does look decent and it does give DX11 support. However about the PhysX. I am not in the techknow right now, but: 

  1. I did hear rumour somehwere that PhysX was being discontinued for the newer cards. So is it that the 560 Ti 448 core lacks PhysX support and this is why you recommend keeping the 9800GTX+?
 

The PhysX engine runs on CUDA cores, or NVIDIA's unified stream processing cores.  This architecture has never changed since the GeForce 8 series, and I can't see it changing any time soon.  
 
Kenshin
 
  1. I will usually try to run all my games at 1440 x 980 max; 1024x768 min. with at least 4xAA if possible and all shadow/particle effects where applicable.

 
Your CPU is definitely a big bottleneck especially at this resolution.  You won't need a powerhouse GPU unless you upgrade your monitor.  9800GTX+ SLI is already more than overkill at this resolution - SLI scaling (not your frame rate) will actually increase for you if you got a larger res monitor.  So my recommendation - overclock your CPU and don't bother buying a new GPU.  Buy a new monitor, preferably an ASUS, Dell, LG or another good brand with a resolution of at least 1920 x 1080.  
 
At 1920 x 1080 your 9800GTX+ SLI config will still struggle in some games on the highest settings (mainly Crysis 2 I assume with high res textures, BF3 due to its VRAM usage, and Batman: Arkham Asylum) but the picture quality will be worth it.  Then when the new cards come out (we'll see the high end GK104 anywhere between Q2-Q3 next year) you can pick one up, or wait for the monstrous GK112 in Q1 2013.
 
That GTX 560 Ti you were looking at is listed at $250 on newegg.  For just $10 more you can get an ASUS VE258Q 25" Monitor.  It is an LED backlit LCD monitor with a 2ms response time (grey to grey), resolution of 1920 x 1080, and has DVI, HDMI, and a DisplayPort (currently the best interface, hopefully NVIDIA will start to use it more).  It also has a 5/5 overall score at newegg.  
post edited by boredgunner - 2011/12/04 15:31:55


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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 15:39:47 (permalink)
Cool dude,
 
I appreciate the technical info and advice you gave. I will definitely give it some more research for my own understanding and fix to suit my needs.
 
All the help is appreciated.
 
boredgunner

Kenshin 

Ok, the card does look decent and it does give DX11 support. However about the PhysX. I am not in the techknow right now, but: 

  1. I did hear rumour somehwere that PhysX was being discontinued for the newer cards. So is it that the 560 Ti 448 core lacks PhysX support and this is why you recommend keeping the 9800GTX+?
 

The PhysX engine runs on CUDA cores, or NVIDIA's unified stream processing cores.  This architecture has never changed since the GeForce 8 series, and I can't see it changing any time soon.  

Kenshin

  1. I will usually try to run all my games at 1440 x 980 max; 1024x768 min. with at least 4xAA if possible and all shadow/particle effects where applicable.


Your CPU is definitely a big bottleneck especially at this resolution.  You won't need a powerhouse GPU unless you upgrade your monitor.  9800GTX+ SLI is already more than overkill at this resolution - SLI scaling (not your frame rate) will actually increase for you if you got a larger res monitor.  So my recommendation - overclock your CPU and don't bother buying a new GPU.  Buy a new monitor, preferably an ASUS, Dell, LG or another good brand with a resolution of at least 1920 x 1080.  

At 1920 x 1080 your 9800GTX+ SLI config will still struggle in some games on the highest settings (mainly Crysis 2 I assume with high res textures, BF3 due to its VRAM usage, and Batman: Arkham Asylum) but the picture quality will be worth it.  Then when the new cards come out (we'll see the high end GK104 anywhere between Q2-Q3 next year) you can pick one up, or wait for the monstrous GK112 in Q1 2013.

That GTX 560 Ti you were looking at is listed at $250 on newegg.  For just $10 more you can get an .  It is an LED backlit LCD monitor with a 2ms response time (grey to grey), resolution of 1920 x 1080, and has DVI, HDMI, and a DisplayPort (currently the best interface, hopefully NVIDIA will start to use it more).  It also has a 5/5 overall score at newegg.  



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lehpron
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/04 17:04:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
If you were GPU-bottlenecked, meaning your CPU is so fast that performance scales linearly with more graphics power, then the difference between two video card choices are determined by the ratio of the number of cores multiplied by the shader frequency.
 
So, you twin 9800GTX's have 128-cores each at 1836Mhz versus the 560 TI's 384-core at 1900.  That's up to 55% higher.
 
That said, in order for this potential performance to scale equally from the GPU to your display, the total memory bandwidth must scale equally because it determines the rate between the GPU and your Vram.  In SLi, GPU render power increases, but Vram size and bandwidth don't because each card does every other frame in a scene.  So what you have is the equivalent of a 256-shader video card with just 512MB Vram at 70GB/s.
 
In order for the upgrade to scale on bandwidth, you need 55% more space to handle it at the same level as you 9800GTX+ did, so that comes to about 108GB/s.  The 560 Ti's 131 exceeds that which just means if you were GPU bottlenecked you get 55% more performance with the switch.
 
The caveat of course is that most folks are not GPU bottlenecked, we are CPU bottlenecked and thus may need to overclock the CPU farther along with the GPU improvement.  The 55% ratio doesn't apply here, you CPU is running the game and telling the GPU what to draw, and since each game is coded slightly differently along with yoru choice of game details, it isn't obvious.
 
The worst that can happen is you upgrade the cards and nothing happens, this means the CPU is too slow and isn't feeding the cards any faster than it did before so it doesn't make use of the extra graphics power.  If you haven't overclocked your Phenom, consider looking up how-to-guides online or start a new thread in another subforum asking how.
 
Also note: some times a resolution bottleneck, that if your resolution is too low that gives the graphics card little to do, can effectively makes the game CPU-intensive even if your hardware was balanced.  Meaning you may not notice GPU upgrades without pushing the CPU up some.

For Intel processors, 0.122 x TDP = Continuous Amps at 12v [source].  

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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 09:20:58 (permalink)
@lephron Thanks for taking to time to write up your reply, especially with your explanation behind the scaling of the memory rate to match the corresponding increase in the cores and shader clock.
 
That's some really good info there mate. I have always been scared of overclocking, for one thing I don't wanna kill my chip LOLOL... and I know that there are serious heat considerations when overclocking. I currently have a self contained Liquid cooling solution, CoolIT Systems ECO 240 A.L.C (forum.coolitsystems.com/index.php/en/home/24-240mm-case-compatibility/7264-cosmos-s-original.html).
 
Based on your experience, if I were to overclock, you think it would successfully manage to keep the temps safely down under load? Or should I looking into the custom build liquid cooling?
 
Thanks again.
 

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joshkope
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 20:20:35 (permalink)
What's the difference between the regular GTX 560 ti FPB and the 448 cores version?
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hellmel
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 21:50:56 (permalink)
Quote from Toms hardware reveiw
 
It’s not often that a graphics card manufacturer goes through the trouble of launching a special, limited-run product just for the holiday season. But that’s exactly what Nvidia is doing with its GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core.
Given the name, you might expect this new card to be an unlocked and enhanced version of Nvidia's existing GeForce GTX 560 Ti. But that's simply not so. Recall that the GF114 graphics processor used in the existing GeForce GTX 560 Ti is already unfettered. All of its 384 cores are functional, leaving no disabled hardware to turn on. Rather, the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core is equipped with a cut-back GF110.
This GPU was first seen on the company's GeForce GTX 580, slightly handicapped for use in its GeForce GTX 570, and now further trimmed back for the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core.

GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core Specs:

Compared to the GeForce GTX 580, two Streaming Multiprocessors (SM) are disabled; the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core utilizes 14 of the GF110’s 16 available SMs. Each functioning SM has 32 shader cores and four texture units. Five of the six 64-bit ROP partitions are left enabled, each capable of handling eight 32-bit integer pixels per clock cycle.
All told, the card has 448 shader cores, 56 texture units, 40 ROPs, and a 320-bit memory interface. Not surprisingly, its power demands necessitate two six-pin PCIe power cables. And because it's one of Nvidia's higher-end boards, the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core card supports two-, three-, and four-way SLI through its pair of SLI bridges. You cannot match it up to a standard GeForce GTX 560 Ti card, of course. It'll only cooperate with other 448-core models. So, if you'd like to run in a multi-card configuration, buy these boards at the same time, since they're not expected to remain available.
 
 

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joshkope
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 21:52:47 (permalink)
hellmel

Quote from Toms hardware reveiw

It’s not often that a graphics card manufacturer goes through the trouble of launching a special, limited-run product just for the holiday season. But that’s exactly what Nvidia is doing with its GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core.
Given the name, you might expect this new card to be an unlocked and enhanced version of Nvidia's existing GeForce GTX 560 Ti. But that's simply not so. Recall that the GF114 graphics processor used in the existing GeForce GTX 560 Ti is already unfettered. All of its 384 cores are functional, leaving no disabled hardware to turn on. Rather, the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core is equipped with a cut-back GF110.
This GPU was first seen on the company's GeForce GTX 580, slightly handicapped for use in its GeForce GTX 570, and now further trimmed back for the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core.

GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core Specs:

Compared to the GeForce GTX 580, two Streaming Multiprocessors (SM) are disabled; the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core utilizes 14 of the GF110’s 16 available SMs. Each functioning SM has 32 shader cores and four texture units. Five of the six 64-bit ROP partitions are left enabled, each capable of handling eight 32-bit integer pixels per clock cycle.
All told, the card has 448 shader cores, 56 texture units, 40 ROPs, and a 320-bit memory interface. Not surprisingly, its power demands necessitate two six-pin PCIe power cables. And because it's one of Nvidia's higher-end boards, the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Core card supports two-, three-, and four-way SLI through its pair of SLI bridges. You cannot match it up to a standard GeForce GTX 560 Ti card, of course. It'll only cooperate with other 448-core models. So, if you'd like to run in a multi-card configuration, buy these boards at the same time, since they're not expected to remain available.



 
I'm not sure if I completely understand all that. So how good is this card? What can I compare it to?
#14
hellmel
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 22:01:53 (permalink)
Different GPU, same as 570 from what I saw, but cut to a little slower, faster than the first 560's they came out with. Some of the test scores that some guys are getting are better than my 570SC's but they have better CPU's. I'm thinking of getting a couple for my son's first build I want to do for him. plenty fast for the games he plays and cheaper than my 570's where.  a single card would do nicely, but two in SLI would last him longer. But you can only lose a game so fast. They are limited editions so I might get two, just so he can have them now and not have to not find a second later, that I don't like.

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joshkope
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 22:08:56 (permalink)
hellmel

Different GPU, same as 570 from what I saw, but cut to a little slower, faster than the first 560's they came out with. Some of the test scores that some guys are getting are better than my 570SC's but they have better CPU's. I'm thinking of getting a couple for my son's first build I want to do for him. plenty fast for the games he plays and cheaper than my 570's where.  a single card would do nicely, but two in SLI would last him longer. But you can only lose a game so fast. They are limited editions so I might get two, just so he can have them now and not have to not find a second later, that I don't like.


I'm sure he'd really appreciate that. I have a 560 ti FPB. I was thinking of just getting another one to SLI. I don't have the money to buy two of those haha.
#16
crezno
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/05 22:10:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
IMO, I would stay away from the SLI 9800, and definitely get at least a 560TI.  The 560TI will hands down destroy SLI 9800's. 
 
One reason to keep in mind is that the Nvidia drivers have been optimized for 500 Series card, even in SLI.  The new drivers have not been optimized for the 400 series and under.  So the scaling will not be there with SLI in lower series of cards.  Plus the power consumption is incredibly less on the single 560TI. Less heat will be genereated as well.  I had a 560TI and they easily hit 1GHz on the Clock speed when you unlock the voltage and they run cool.
 
The 9800GTX+ in sli will still only have 512MB VRAM, which wont do you much good if you ever want to run 1920x1080. Which I assume eventually you will upgrade your monitor. And you jump to DX11. 
 
Also the jump from DDR3 to DDR5 is huge you will get almost 2x the memory bandwidth. Which helps a ton.
 
Someone mentioned your CPU is the bottleneck, that is 100% not true. That CPU can handle much much more than a single 560TI. You could do SLI 560TIs with that 965. 
 
If I had to call out a bottle neck it would be your DDR2 RAM.  But its not that big of a bottleneck.
 
Go for the 560TI. If you want to spend the extra money get the 448 Core version, its practically a 570 with an SM disabled which drops it 32 cores.

 
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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/07 19:15:55 (permalink)
There are a lot of different opinions here. Everyone seems to make a valid point. I still haven't found the time to research everything mentioned, but I guess I will have to take into consideration everything and apply it to my specific case while making observations.
 
@Crezno, are you saying that I should get the 560Ti and not the 560Ti FPB? Or are you saying that I should get anything in the 560Ti series?

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crezno
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/07 19:24:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Yea, depending on th emoney you want to spend will determin what you get.
 
the standard 560TI (384 Core) version is pretty cheap and still good.  If you wanted to spend a few more dollars, get the 560TI(448 Core) model.  Its capable of tri-sli, so it has more expansion capability.
 
But probably the most cost effective future proof card you can get for the price right now would be the 570 2.5GB versions. I highly doubt anytime soon that there will be anything that would ever need tri-sli.
 
But if you just want a step up from what you have, a single 560TI 384 Core would be a huge upgrade for you.  If you get a SC version your set.  They all run at leats 900Mhz otherwise, you just have to OC it there. They are always dropping to around $220 all the time.
 
Amazon has the EVGA 560TI SC for $250 with $20 rebate for the AR version. (Lifetime warranty).

 
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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/12 12:44:43 (permalink)
Cool, I think I will go for the 560TI FPB that's available to me. I will shift the older model 9800GTX+ into another computer as an upgrade to the GFX performance and keep the newer model 9800GTX+ in my current system as the Physx card.
 
Thanks to everybody for helping me come to a decision. Before I go, can anyone recommend a program that I can do some benchmarking with using the current config, and the future upgrade. If there is a freeware program available it would be helpful. I think it would be interesting to post the results and get actual numbers behind the upgrade.
 
crezno

Yea, depending on th emoney you want to spend will determin what you get.

the standard 560TI (384 Core) version is pretty cheap and still good.  If you wanted to spend a few more dollars, get the 560TI(448 Core) model.  Its capable of tri-sli, so it has more expansion capability.

But probably the most cost effective future proof card you can get for the price right now would be the 570 2.5GB versions. I highly doubt anytime soon that there will be anything that would ever need tri-sli.

But if you just want a step up from what you have, a single 560TI 384 Core would be a huge upgrade for you.  If you get a SC version your set.  They all run at leats 900Mhz otherwise, you just have to OC it there. They are always dropping to around $220 all the time.

Amazon has the EVGA 560TI SC for $250 with $20 rebate for the AR version. (Lifetime warranty).



ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
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eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
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chiptouz
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/12 17:49:26 (permalink)
Let us know how your new card works in comparison to the last.

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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 08:55:17 (permalink)
Yeah I was planning to. But regarding the benchmarking software, I was thinking about using the Basic Version of 3DMark Vantage for DX10 and 3DMark 11 for DX11. I already did some prelims with the advanced on my 9800GTX+ SLI config on the default settings of Extreme, Performance and High. My CPU does only 1482 operations per second for the first test and PhysX test (Crash and Burn) was horrible.
 
But would the other feature tests be an important aspect of the benchmark? Or would the generic Graphics Test 1+2; CPU Test 1+2 be suffienct for guaging performance? If you all could let me know today I would be grateful. I just purchased the 560Ti FPB (384 core) like 1 hour ago, so I intend to install it tonight. I wanted to benchmark three hardware conditions:
  1. 9800GTX+ SLI
  2. 560Ti FBB single
  3. 560Ti FPB with 9800GTX+
Am I correct in assuming that 3DMark Vantage will give a score on the 560Ti by itself since the card will be capable of doing DX10 (and likewise DX11 is maintains compatiblity with DX10 applications)?
 
chiptouz

Let us know how your new card works in comparison to the last.


post edited by Kenshin - 2011/12/13 16:15:12

ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 64-Bit
4x2GB G.Skill PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM
eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
Creative Labs Soundblaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Xtreme Gamer Pro
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Striderstone
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 09:24:56 (permalink)
crezno

IMO, I would stay away from the SLI 9800, and definitely get at least a 560TI.  The 560TI will hands down destroy SLI 9800's. 

One reason to keep in mind is that the Nvidia drivers have been optimized for 500 Series card, even in SLI.  The new drivers have not been optimized for the 400 series and under.  So the scaling will not be there with SLI in lower series of cards.  Plus the power consumption is incredibly less on the single 560TI. Less heat will be genereated as well.  I had a 560TI and they easily hit 1GHz on the Clock speed when you unlock the voltage and they run cool.

The 9800GTX+ in sli will still only have 512MB VRAM, which wont do you much good if you ever want to run 1920x1080. Which I assume eventually you will upgrade your monitor. And you jump to DX11. 

Also the jump from DDR3 to DDR5 is huge you will get almost 2x the memory bandwidth. Which helps a ton.

Someone mentioned your CPU is the bottleneck, that is 100% not true. That CPU can handle much much more than a single 560TI. You could do SLI 560TIs with that 965. 

If I had to call out a bottle neck it would be your DDR2 RAM.  But its not that big of a bottleneck.

Go for the 560TI. If you want to spend the extra money get the 448 Core version, its practically a 570 with an SM disabled which drops it 32 cores.

Wouldn't the RAM bottleneck be part of the issue along with the FSB? I would think that these are huge issues. At least I know it is with my computer. I gave up trying to keep my processor alive and bought a x79 classy with the 3930k.
 
These are great reasons to get the card, that and it is cost effective, but I would recomend almost just buying a new computer or at least mobo/CPU combo. There are some really cheap ones on newegg right now for the holidays, saw a really nice computer for $300 and it would out preform the one you have now and then just get the new video card, throw in some newer mid range RAM and you got yourself a nice modern computer for less then $700.
 
I love building computers but I only get to redo my computer once every 3-4 years but I have experienced everything by just putting in newer parts into older computer, yeah it works and preforms better but I also tend to get a lot more freezes, BSoD's, and bottleneck like performance because not all my components play well with each other.

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chiptouz
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 11:00:25 (permalink)
yes, the 560ti will run both the dx10 and dx11 tests based on the version of 3dmark that you run.  For benchmarking I usually just run the performance  setting.  Thus I get P in front of my numbers.  I am not sure what the difference between teh extreme and performance settings in 3dmark.

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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 14:45:07 (permalink)
If you click on the options tab you will see the settings for the level option you set on the main page. It has to do with the quality of the textures it is applying, the resolution of the image, multisampling rate, anisotropy and some options to disable certain features in the card.
 
I am going to run it for the three configs I mention and give the score. If possible, I think it is easier to post pics of the results screen for easier viewing. Sorry nobody gave any input regarding and specific combination of parameters to run when benchmarking. I'll just use the default settings and try.
post edited by Kenshin - 2011/12/13 14:48:56

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AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 64-Bit
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eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 16:21:31 (permalink)
Ok, I will updates this post as the results come in. Downloading the latest edition, basic version of 3DMark Vantage from future mark's website, the following are the results for the default performance benchmark:
 
                                                                  3DMark Vantage                 3DMark 11
9800GTX+ SLI                                                 11827                                 n/a
560Ti FBB single                                              15262                               4356
560Ti FPB with 9800GTX+                            cancelled                           cancelled
 
I had to cancel the last test because that configuration is really for testing the benefits of having a dedicated PhysX card. I saw someone doing an investigation into using different series of cards as a dedicated PhysX card along with a GTX580. Basically if the dedicated PhysX card was too slow it resulted in an overall loss of framerate compared to letting one card do the processing. (
 
As I'm writing this, I am seeing something called FluidMark ( which is suppsed to benchmark the PhysX performance. So I think I will use this to test the 560Ti by itself and then with the 9800GTX+.
 
                                                                  FluidMark 1.4.0
560Ti FBB single                                          5078 / 83FPS                              
560Ti FPB with 9800GTX+                         4838 / 79FPS

 
WOW... will you look at that! Using the "Preset: 720" benchmark, the newer version 9800GTX+ as a dedicated PhysX card actually slows down the process with an actual lower point score of 4838 and a lower FPS of 79. Looks like the 560Ti actually trumps the SLI in all aspects! More specifically, from the graphics tests, I noticed a visible stuttering with the original 9800GTX+ SLI config with frames as low as 7! With the 560Ti however, the lowest framerate I got was 19 and that was instantaneous and not enough to look visibly stuttering.
 
I'm not too saavy with all the options in the FluidMark 1.4.0, but I am wondering how these numbers would be affected under more "graphical" load rather than PhysX load.
 
Based on the various results that I saw over the testing period, I would say that based on the information I have:
  1. Yes I do believe that my processor could be a bottleneck, but not majorly
  2. Anything below a 9800GTX+ as a dedicated PhysX card would most probably slow you down a bit
 
Anyone have any comments on the results?
post edited by Kenshin - 2011/12/13 19:31:59

ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 64-Bit
4x2GB G.Skill PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM
eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
Creative Labs Soundblaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Xtreme Gamer Pro
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chiptouz
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/13 20:23:02 (permalink)
Awesome thanks for the update.  Now if you only had another 560ti to test SLI...  :)
 
 

System Specs: Intel i7-7700k @ 4.8ghz, Noctua NH-U14S, Asus ROG Max. IX Code, 16GB GSkill Trident Z RGB DDR4 3600, ASUS STRIX GTX 1080TI OC, ACER XB270HU, 1x Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD 240GB (OS), 1x SanDisk Extreme Pro 480gb SSD and 1x Intel 730 480gb SSD R0(Games), 1x WD GR Sata3 4.0tb (Programs and Media), 1x BL Sata3 6.0tb (Backups), EVGA 1000 P2, CoolerMaster hafX, Logitech G502,G910, Win10 64bit Home Premium. 
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Kenshin
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2011/12/14 17:22:59 (permalink)
Yeah I wish!
 
Anyway, downloaded the Batman: Arkham Asylum demo and played it again and WOW, the thing played so smoothely.. however I seem to recall that the first time I played the demo I was able to tweak the graphics options in order for it to play ok with the SLI config. Now there doesn't seem to be those options, however the game still looked REAL crisp compared to what I remembered. No stuttering at all.... A HUGE difference. I am really glad I got the card! For sure!
 
I am still looking for a way to actually quantify the PhysX performance with and without a dedicated PhysX GPU. Something that will allow tweaking of the GFX load and PhysX load to see how the configuration performs under different loading conditions. So please if anyone has some advice on how to benchamrk it please share.
 
Thanks.

ASUS M4N82 Deluxe 980a SLI
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 64-Bit
4x2GB G.Skill PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM
eVGA GeForce GTX560Ti FPB 1024MB DDR5 (GFX)
eVGA GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB DDR3 (PhysX)
Creative Labs Soundblaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Xtreme Gamer Pro
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mbuckingham24
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Re:Upgrade Advice 9800GTX+ SLI ---> 560 Ti FPB 2012/02/03 20:04:58 (permalink)
Kenshin

I am still looking for a way to actually quantify the PhysX performance with and without a dedicated PhysX GPU. Something that will allow tweaking of the GFX load and PhysX load to see how the configuration performs under different loading conditions. So please if anyone has some advice on how to benchamrk it please share.

Thanks.


I have also just upgraded from 9800 GTX+ in 2 way SLI to a single 560 Ti GPU.  In game performance for the most part has been just about the same for me, although the min FPS doesn't go as low, and DX11 support is awesome.  However, in 3DMark06 (DX9) I lost around 1700 points, and in 3DMark Vantage (DX10) gained P6000 points!
I have not tried putting in one of the 9800s as a dedicated PhysX card, and wondered what you ultimately found to be best for you.  I see in your FluidMark bench, that the 9800 slightly under performs the 560, but that is purely PhysX.  In game the 560 Ti will be busy processing textures, AA, etc., and may benefit from the 9800 GTX+ taking care of PhysX. 
Batman: Arkham City supports DX11 and PhysX, and has a performance test that may give some insight to us..

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