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Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 *Updated Links*

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dustinr26
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/10/30 12:26:13 (permalink)
bowler484
There are too many GTX 980 SLI reviews out there to believe what the OP is saying word for word. 
 
I can see an high clocked aftermarket 970 touching a 980 performance though.  But this has happened almost every time in the past as well.  670 could OC to 680.  780 could OC to 780 Ti etc.  Nothing has changed there.   
 
The indisputable fact is that the 980, when comparing reference apples to reference apples, is over 10% faster. 
 
Is that 10% worth the premium.  Most of the time no, especially at 1080p.  But at 4K like myself, that 10% can mean getting a 60fps average or not getting a 60fps average.  That means the 980 SLI would have a longer lifespan in my rig making the premium worth it for me.
 
So making a blanket statement that one is better than the other is quite silly.  Everyone's needs are different.       




 
Agree with you 100%

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dustinr26
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 *Updated Links* 2014/10/30 12:31:29 (permalink)
MagicalMidge
2x780TI Gigabyte Ghz Edition Valley benchmark: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#1 
2x970 Reference design: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#4
2x980 Reference design: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#5
2x970 Asus Strix cooler (custom pcb and cooler) imgur.com/a/tyJIx#7
2x980 Asus Strix cooler (custom pcb and cooler) imgur.com/a/tyJIx#8 keep in mind for this one, this is on the x99 platform that has lower clock speeds, so the comparison to the 2x970 isnt fantastically scientific, I am just using the systems I can, while I can.
 
2x980 Evga Super Clocked Editions: i.imgur.com/TViLlUJ.jpg
 
 
I want to start this thread off by saying, I know that A whole bunch of you know this already, I am making this post because I really want to try and help those guys who are not in the business and don't exactly know what the sweet spot is for price to performance.
 
***Quick note*** I know because I am mixing vendor's this isnt exactly lab conditions of testing, but im trying to give examples with the information I have, and the resources I have available to me.
 
Okay, so with graphics cards there is a consumer sweet spot for price to performance, sometimes you can really want to just shove money at a product to say you have the flagship one, honestly the 970/980 is not the place to do this at, I really mean it, not at all.
 
I have a variety of different benchmarks for you, some of 970 sli, some of 980 sli, different coolers, different vendors, please just look at the score the graphics cards get, the min and max frame rates.
 
Some times the 970's in SLI even beat some of the stock 980's SLI...
 
Here is the link to the Imgur folder: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#0
 
I would like to draw your attention to just a few of the main ones:
 
Let's start of basic, let's go back a generation and look at a good 780ti SLI setup, it's the gigabyte ghz editions, high clock speeds, good card all around: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#1 Valley score was 5472, and I will mention it here, this is the HIGHEST score of any of the cards I have in the selection thus far. (now it was running on an overclocked 4790k, running at 4.6) That really shouldnt affect valley scores above about 100 though.
 
So why proceed to the newer cards if the 780ti beats out all the competition? Well, the drivers are new, optimizations need to be made, the 780ti were pretty much the end line 780ti's the max performance was pulled out of them, so it's unlikley we will see any better 780ti's, but we can see the 980's improve with a TI version.
 
You also may be interested in the 900 series cards for the same reason I am, lower noise, lower temps, and lower power. I dont care too much about performance, I only play at 1080, so whatever high end card I get is going to breeze through that.
 
So next in line let's look at the reference 970's: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#4 and the reference 980's: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#5 Okay so as you can see the 970's got a score of 4341, more than 1000 less than the 780 ti's do. The 980's get 4856, so if you look at score wise on valley, it's about 500 more point's for 2 980's than 2 970's, however the price difference you're looking at about £400/$600, now, im not saying valley scores are everything, but they are a good indication of what the cards will perform like in real life gaming use. 
 
If you just take a look at the min/max frame rates of both of those cards, they are pretty much identical.
 
Okay, taking a step away from the reference designs and looking at some benchmarks of the aftermarket coolers and the power houses they should be... Right? No...
 
Keeping it a little more consistent though the 980's get a better/worse CPU depending on how you look at it, our 2 980's actually had to go in an x99 build so you will have to forgive that, (lower clock speed, more cores, should generally equal out for performance) Okay, so the 970's were the Asus Strix design: imgur.com/a/tyJIx#7 as you can see they get a score of 4525, fantastic that's about 200 more than the reference designs. The 980's are the same Asus Strix, however... imgur.com/a/tyJIx#8 they get a miserable 4750, this is less than our reference design's from Gigabyte.
 
Okay now what you're probably into most seen as you're on the EVGA forum, some EVGA SC card result's and the scores, unfortunately I was only able to get 2 of the 980's SC Acx 2.0: i.imgur.com/TViLlUJ.jpg Yes that's right 2 980's got 4099 in Valley, this is the lowest I have ever seen 2 980's get.
 
I love EVGA and they have my brand loyalty, I just really dont know what to say other than, what happened with the 980's? Are you guy's noticing they are not performing all that well? Is it purely software based or are the optimizations of Maxwell cutting corners leading to leakier chips?
 
This post wasnt to dig the evga scores though, it was to show you why you shouldnt buy a 980, or even 2 980's.
 
Conclusion. The Nvidia GTX 980 is a fantastic flagship graphics card, but not for it's price tag. If you are only in it for the performance, you can get basically 2 970's for about £100/$170 more than 1 980. 
 
P.s EVGA Team, if you wan't to send me any 970's to test I would happily oblige. Finding it very difficult to get 2x970's (I even want 2x970 ACX 2.0 in my personal rig, just cant source them) Or even if you're not up for sending me any, I would really appreciate anyone at EVGA or the Community popping 2 of the 970's in a rig, let valley idle for 1 hour (that is what the case was for these images) and then benchmark it and send me the image.
 
P.P.S, waiting for all of the TLDR comments :D
 
 




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#32
MagicalMidge
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 *Updated Links* 2014/10/30 12:34:07 (permalink)
The imgur.com/a/tyJIx#EnterNumberHere is what points to a different link ie different image. If you actually load the images you see it points to different images.
#33
enacku
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/10/30 16:13:56 (permalink)
mcneill467
Sure I'll try when I get home, my firestorm was 19414 if I remember right, graphics score around 27-28k.

 http://www.3dmark.com/fs/2945340
 
Graphics score of 26,300, probably clocked @ 1520mhz and ram @3786mhz (I didn't think I did a successful firestrike without a crash when overclocking ram, no sure why my results have a weird ram speed number, I could overclock it +280 in games.)
post edited by enacku - 2014/10/30 16:19:55

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#34
MagicalMidge
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/10/31 02:59:05 (permalink)
Could you do a valley benchmark for us? Then take a screenshot of the result and I will add it to the OP. More systems we have, the better picture we can draw performance wise.
#35
mcneill467
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/10/31 14:56:25 (permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/KIVrb0I.jpg

Enjoy

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#36
jpcopeland1
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 15:12:58 (permalink)
Lol

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#37
XrayMan
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 15:24:58 (permalink)
 
Sorry, I bought one anyway.        :P

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#38
Jackos
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 15:32:10 (permalink)
Damn, sorry guys, I have one GTX980 too...
Sorry once again.
 
LOL

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#39
seta8967
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 16:09:08 (permalink)
http://www.3dmark.com/hall-of-fame-2/fire+strike+3dmark+score+extreme+preset/version+1.1/3+gpu

Man look at all those 970s in the hall of fame. If only i had been a smart man and got the 970.... i am so ashamed....
#40
Grey_Beard
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 18:23:18 (permalink)
How many 970's were in the Hall of Fame? I see 0. Maybe I am just blinded by my want of a 980. I feel so bad I ordered 4. Two have arrived and other two are on the way. Man I am I sorry about that.



#41
seta8967
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 20:51:34 (permalink)
Grey_Beard
How many 970's were in the Hall of Fame? I see 0. Maybe I am just blinded by my want of a 980. I feel so bad I ordered 4. Two have arrived and other two are on the way. Man I am I sorry about that.


I was being sarcastic. They dont even show at the 100 mark. OP is making a list of scores and saying how 970s are better. We already have a list and its non biased that shows the 980s are better. Right now it looks like the power scale goes 980, 780ti, 290x, 780, 290,then 970.

Bear in mind that the 980s also useing less mature drivers, while the 780ti is using mature and near finallized drivers. Most updates now will be 900 series focused.

If you feel bad you could send one of those 980s my way though....
#42
seanrm
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 22:05:00 (permalink)
OK, a bit of love for the 970.

Those 3DMark Hall of Fame scores usually rely on high-end rigs, aggressive overclocking and additional after-market cooling.
Besides, too much number crunching = less game time.
 
In the real world, my 970 is about 15% slower than a 980.
The $220 I saved buying the 970 will go towards an upgrade in 12 months time when both these cards are history.
And these few short lines will be largely meaningless.
 
#43
Cableguy696969
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 22:07:56 (permalink)
Sajin
670 vs 680 all over again. 




This all began with GTX 470 vs 480

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#44
seta8967
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 22:33:42 (permalink)
seanrm
OK, a bit of love for the 970.

Those 3DMark Hall of Fame scores usually rely on high-end rigs, aggressive overclocking and additional after-market cooling.
Besides, too much number crunching = less game time.
 
In the real world, my 970 is about 15% slower than a 980.
The $220 I saved buying the 970 will go towards an upgrade in 12 months time when both these cards are history.
And these few short lines will be largely meaningless.
 


Agreed price per performance the 970 is hands down the better performer. But OP said the 970 is bettee in sli vs sli 980s. 980s are hands down better for max perfirmance disregard price.
#45
seanrm
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/01 22:47:30 (permalink)
seta8967
seanrm
OK, a bit of love for the 970.

Those 3DMark Hall of Fame scores usually rely on high-end rigs, aggressive overclocking and additional after-market cooling.
Besides, too much number crunching = less game time.
 
In the real world, my 970 is about 15% slower than a 980.
The $220 I saved buying the 970 will go towards an upgrade in 12 months time when both these cards are history.
And these few short lines will be largely meaningless.
 


Agreed price per performance the 970 is hands down the better performer. But OP said the 970 is bettee in sli vs sli 980s. 980s are hands down better for max perfirmance disregard price.



Yep. I was just having a gentle poke at the folks with the monster rigs.
 
The OP...there's a whiff of mischievousness in his contention which is, clearly, wrong.
#46
MagicalMidge
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/02 16:37:19 (permalink)
I said no such thing, I know this is the internet, and I cannot control how you read my post, but for the love of god, please dont say I said things that I clearly didnt.
 
I did: mention an occasion where I had a 970 SLI setup and a 980 SLI setup, and in very closed testing circumstances, IE, fresh os installs, fresh drivers and same benchmark ran the 970's got a higher score.
 
That isnt to say im trying to say the 970 is a more powerful card, because, it isnt. That was never in dispute. What was in dispute is that the 980 is an unreliable card for the extra 200 you spend on it. And on occasion, when the chip is right, ie a high boosting 970 pair, and a **** 980 pair you can see that 970's are capable of beating out 980s therefore the 980's are only for people who have no idea what they are doing and just think that throwing their wallet around will get them the best performance, without even considering saving money on one component and spending more on something that they will see a higher performance increase from.
#47
MagicalMidge
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/02 16:49:12 (permalink)
I love how the "community" I thought we had is just turning to bit ching, when I said in the OP: "The gtx 980 is a fantastic flagship gpu, but not for it's price tag" I forgot that in reality I was really hating on the thing, really it's my bad... Oh wait.
 
I have from start to finish in this post tried to enlighten people, I never "hated" on the 980, or the 970, or in fact any other Nvidia graphics card, I simply, in a roundabout way tried to make a post informing people of actual performance difference between the 970 and the 980.
 
You can, when you're new to PC components get lost in spec sheets very quickly and find yourself thinking that you need the biggest numbers in everthing, I am trying to show people benchmarks of standard rigs, nothing done to them where you see 1: the valley score which indicates globally how well the gpus held up, and also the min and max fps of the different cards.
 
But hey, trying to do something nice on the internet? I must be out for world domination, clearly.
#48
NordicJedi
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/02 23:08:16 (permalink)
Alright, people.  Let's watch the language, personal attacks, and off-topic comments.
 
@OP - You may consider that people are not simply being defensive or trying to justify their purchases; instead, they may simply disagree with your methodology and your reliance on your own anecdotal results.  You may not be saying that the GTX 980's are bad, but you're still making a claim about its performance and pricing, and people disagree with your testing and conclusions about a 980's comparative performance to a 970.  For instance, you tested many different combinations of cards, motherboards, and CPU's, as well as different operating systems - on only one benchmark.  You even state at the top of your post that it's hardly a scientific means of comparison.  While you only refer to one of the results in that fashion, it really applies to all of your testing.  
 
I understand that you may not have had the opportunity to do a more standard means of using a consistent test bench, but that doesn't excuse the very strong possibility that your conclusions may be suspect for that very reason.  For example, you make comments about the EVGA cards, yet you tested them using a processor at the slowest speed of any of your system configurations and appear to be asking if something's wrong with them.  
 
Your conclusions may, in fact, have some merit about the difference in performance between the GTX 980's and 970's, but your testing and evidence leaves far too much to be desired for us to take them at face value.  I'm sorry to say it, but given the testing methodology, and your certainty about your conclusions, as well as your offer to "enlighten" people on the forums, I have to also wonder whether some of the Valley runs weren't simply cherry-picked from a series of runs; likewise, I have to wonder if only a single benchmark run per set of cards was completed and posted.  I would hope they aren't, but your thread really relies on a series of very inconsistent testing conditions.  Because of that, there's little credibility that can be given to the results and the conclusions that can be drawn from those results.
 
Consider the above in a constructive manner.  There's nothing wrong with trying to do what you're trying to do, even if the results end up being different than some people would expect or want them to be.  However, when doing so, you do need to make sure that your ducks are in a row with your testing and methodology.

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#49
Nereus
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/03 00:14:07 (permalink)
 
Nice post Nordic.
 


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#50
bowler484
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/03 03:34:29 (permalink)
MagicalMidge
I love how the "community" I thought we had is just turning to bit ching, when I said in the OP: "The gtx 980 is a fantastic flagship gpu, but not for it's price tag" I forgot that in reality I was really hating on the thing, really it's my bad... Oh wait.
 I have from start to finish in this post tried to enlighten people, I never "hated" on the 980, or the 970, or in fact any other Nvidia graphics card, I simply, in a roundabout way tried to make a post informing people of actual performance difference between the 970 and the 980.
You can, when you're new to PC components get lost in spec sheets very quickly and find yourself thinking that you need the biggest numbers in everthing, I am trying to show people benchmarks of standard rigs, nothing done to them where you see 1: the valley score which indicates globally how well the gpus held up, and also the min and max fps of the different cards.
But hey, trying to do something nice on the internet? I must be out for world domination, clearly.

 
Once again, there is no doubt that the 970 is indeed the better price to performance card. 
But we have so many reviews out there that have tested 980 vs 970 that do not correspond to the results you are getting. 
So when trying to judge on what card a person should buy, they should be looking at the dozen or more reviews that tested both cards in the same system and had the 980 up to 15% faster instead of taking the results of a single user in a forum.  You should realize that the average of a dozen reviews is far more valid than a single results and stop taking things personally because it's not. 
 
 
 
 
 

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#51
seta8967
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/03 04:00:00 (permalink)
Someone give nordic a ribbon oh wait....


There is little doubt that the 970 is better performer per price. But labeling a thread "Dont buy a gtx 980" and stating things like "Some times the 970's in SLI even beat some of the stock 980's SLI..." is going to be meet with resistance. Especially since there are many rwst that show otherwise.
#52
MagicalMidge
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/04 14:52:05 (permalink)
NordicJedi
Alright, people.  Let's watch the language, personal attacks, and off-topic comments.
 
@OP - You may consider that people are not simply being defensive or trying to justify their purchases; instead, they may simply disagree with your methodology and your reliance on your own anecdotal results.  You may not be saying that the GTX 980's are bad, but you're still making a claim about its performance and pricing, and people disagree with your testing and conclusions about a 980's comparative performance to a 970.  For instance, you tested many different combinations of cards, motherboards, and CPU's, as well as different operating systems - on only one benchmark.  You even state at the top of your post that it's hardly a scientific means of comparison.  While you only refer to one of the results in that fashion, it really applies to all of your testing.  
 
I understand that you may not have had the opportunity to do a more standard means of using a consistent test bench, but that doesn't excuse the very strong possibility that your conclusions may be suspect for that very reason.  For example, you make comments about the EVGA cards, yet you tested them using a processor at the slowest speed of any of your system configurations and appear to be asking if something's wrong with them.  
 
Your conclusions may, in fact, have some merit about the difference in performance between the GTX 980's and 970's, but your testing and evidence leaves far too much to be desired for us to take them at face value.  I'm sorry to say it, but given the testing methodology, and your certainty about your conclusions, as well as your offer to "enlighten" people on the forums, I have to also wonder whether some of the Valley runs weren't simply cherry-picked from a series of runs; likewise, I have to wonder if only a single benchmark run per set of cards was completed and posted.  I would hope they aren't, but your thread really relies on a series of very inconsistent testing conditions.  Because of that, there's little credibility that can be given to the results and the conclusions that can be drawn from those results.
 
Consider the above in a constructive manner.  There's nothing wrong with trying to do what you're trying to do, even if the results end up being different than some people would expect or want them to be.  However, when doing so, you do need to make sure that your ducks are in a row with your testing and methodology.




I appreciate where you're coming from, and as you mentioned in the OP, I did indeed say these tests are not completely scientific.
 
A few things I would like to comment on, these PC's have to be completely random setup's, it's the nature of my job. That is unfortunate, but is also IMO actually not the worst thing that could ever happen. Yes, these tests would be 100% more valid if I ran every card(s) on the same rig, just changing out the gpu's, but that isnt a realistic thing for people to do in there builds at home either. 
 
Yes, I appreciate the EVGA cards were on x99, as I did mention in the OP too. Again, that's kind of out of my control, I just got these screenshot's for 1stly my own benefit/interest then I decided to make a post on here about it. To be honest, to point to my other point, again this being on x99 and lower clock speed I dont personally thing is an outrageous thing to see. Let's face it, most "enthusiasts" right now are going x99, 2x980's some will overclock the chips, but really some may not and may just want to throw money at components thinking they will get better result's, which gaming in general requires more speed than cores. 
 
To answer your question, these test's were performed by; letting valley idle for exactly 1 hour, then running it through a benchmark, one time deal, then screenshotting it.
#53
Nereus
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/05 09:52:46 (permalink)
 
MagicalMidge
Yes, these tests would be 100% more valid if I ran every card(s) on the same rig, just changing out the gpu's, but that isnt a realistic thing for people to do in there builds at home either. 
 



I would think most users only have 1 main rig at home, so just swapping out cards on the same rig would be the most realistic thing for people to do in their builds at home, assuming they are able to get the cards with the option to return them without some restocking fee (Newegg.. grr).
 
Also, as Nordic said, multiple tests on each rig are the best way to get a more reliable rating than a single one-off run.. if some other process fires off in the background during one of the tests that may adversely affect the results, or the driver install was slightly corrupt, or a number of many other issues that may arise, averaging multiple results and/or tossing out the extreme results (good or bad) makes your conclusions more reliable.
 
Posting one-off results from different rigs and using that as a basis for a claim as contentious as inferring that 970SLI are/may be better than 980SLI is almost asking for the reaction you received here.. it's not denial or fan-boyism or anything like that (in most cases, lol), it's just common sense, and experience.
 
Please accept my apologies for being one of those who initially reacted harshly to your postulation (since deleted), rather than discussing it rationally.
 
 


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TheBatman1337
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/05 10:17:02 (permalink)
Maybe the 970 is better because the 970 ate 9... 80? I'm pretty sure I am on to something.
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Nereus
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Re: Really, don't buy a Gtx 980 2014/11/05 19:36:56 (permalink)
 
TheBatman1337
Maybe the 970 is better because the 970 ate 9... 80? I'm pretty sure I am on to something.



Almost..but I think there was a ╥ involved somewhere.
 


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