Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/17 04:09:02
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Eh, I'm up in the air about handicaps or none. I would like divisions though. Lightweight - Heavy weight folders or something. (i'm prolly a feather weight lol) But then again that could be more complicated to set up. I'm sure one of you eggheads (said with love) will figure it out. On another note, brcom, I'm hungry for soup, LET'S EAT!!!
Man is capable of as much atrocities as he has imagination. People are, well, only human. We know that. The rule of law is borne out in identifying, condemning, and punishing those who violate the standards on which we all agree. This is exactly what we do in America.
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Barbarossa
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/18 04:32:39
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^since you´re folding here with us at EVGA you´d have to compete in the heavyweight category  as we´re all folding under one name during the CC. I received my login details for the captains forum a couple of hours ago, and got some catching up to do.
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mikeric
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/18 16:12:30
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I Dont think there would be a fair way to handicap a contest like this. I think it does need to be changed so more teams will take part it in. I just dont know how you would handicap it fairly without causing issues.
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pgmoney
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/20 08:46:30
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OK first off this is all for science and to increase the amount of work units completed, thus helping stanford get more work done in a shorter amount of time. A handicap will take away from this being the goal. Then it is for friendly competition between forums.
Just because we can put up 20 million in a day as a team under our own names does not mean we can do it under one name. we found this out 2 years ago and even though we came out the gates running last year we was not able to get everyone under EVGApes name to fold for the CC.
Why change the rules now on how a race is run?
Increase the amount of points needed to win ok I am fine with that, as we will be doing more work for science which is what all of this is about. Besides who didn't love watching the race for 3rd place last year? It was neck and neck.
Now the real questions.
How have those teams improved since last year?
How much are other teams holding back? OCN did tripple their points the last 2 years compared to their team aveage.
How does a handicap help science and folding at home?
Why change the formula of chimp challenge after so many years of it being a success?
If other teams does not want to race to a set number of points why not race from a set date and time to another date and time and see who has the most points at the end of the time frame. this would keep teams folding high power for longer period of time, and allow smaller teams to not have to fold for a month to reach the 20 million points.
I still prefer the original method as we know all teams who take part will have contributed equally to the reason we fold to start with.
just my .02
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Barbarossa
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/20 11:33:19
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Why the change of rules? Because otherwise there would be no more chimp challenge. OCF, MaxPC, OCAU and some of the other teams would not take part without changes. Why change the formula? Before OCN and we joined, all teams where within the same ppd range, so a flat out race made sense, and a proximate duration was predictable. For the last 2 years it was a sprint for OCN and us, whereas the other teams where draging on. The current favorite is: All teams are folding for a fixed time (7 to 14 days). And to even things out, the points system would look like this: coolamasta
I've had a brain wave, what do you all think, I've posted it on the CC forum for comments:
Just been sat thinking, hows about this I just thought of - a week or 2 week drag race making as much PPD as possible in a set time frame with a deductible percentage based on the points produced from 3 months, I will use Dec, Jan and Feb as examples although I know we don't have Feb stats yet so I made them up! The average points are then worked out and 1% will grant you 1 chimp point, 2 random team examples:
EVGA - Dec: 444,136,941 Jan: 492,405,716 Feb: 476,616,633 making the average of those 3 months = 471,053,096
1% average of that is 4,710,530 which is worth - 1CP (CHIMP POINT)
MaxPC - Dec: 123,616,586 Jan: 140,863,169 Feb: 122,323,665 making the average of those 3 months = 128,934,473
1% average of that is 1,289,344 which is worth - 1CP (CHIMP POINT)
So say we have a 2 week drag race and EVGA do 242,000,000 and MaxPC do 68,000,000 points in that time, divide them by there 1% point scores as above making -
EVGA: 242,000,000 / 4,710,530 = 51.3 CHIMP POINTS
MaxPC: 68,000,000 / 1,289,344 = 52.7 CHIMP POINTS
I´m fully aware that OCN is capable of rising their output tremendously. Also the other captains are aware that some members from [H] have already stated, they´ll help out MPC. So adjustments to the base would be made. Now most importantly, how does science profit? Now instead of racing to a specific target, every team has to go full out for the whole time. So instead of a few days, OCN and us (the two highest producing teams have to fold full out the whole time and fold way more wus overall Hope that answers some of your questions
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pgmoney
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/20 18:13:05
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Sadly no that is a failed point system from jump. Why?? Because there is to many variables! wu's that don't exist anymore or produce lower ppd then they did before or vice versa. Second it took me and zerran a solid 2 months of work getting folders to switch their names on time and we still was missing 27% of our teams production going toward evgapes. during the CC. OCN comes out strong for chimp challenge as you pointed out. how can you base what a cc team will do based on numbers from the entire team during any time frame? The PPD of wu's from 3 or 5 months ago are not equal to what they are now, and I am sure they will change some again before CC starts up. Now even if they used the numbers from last years CC this would not work because a we all know big adv was a huge ppd maker more so last year then this year. EVGA would be lucky to place #4 under that system and obviously we are not that bad of a team at putting up points. let's just make sure the point system is fair to all teams if it is to be changed.
post edited by pgmoney - 2011/03/20 18:34:55
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shdbcamping 
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 06:48:17
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I've never been in a CC, but this does not even resemble a contest that could "crown" any team as winner. It seems to have become convoluted to the 'extreme', confusing and not much of a challenge at all.
What? Did NATO take control of the CC too? You can't please everyone, this is true. But this is no longer anything I can get excited about any longer.
Let's come up with another contest name for whatever this has turned into and allow the CC to RIP with dignity...
JIMO, YMMV.
Sean
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stevedawg
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 09:40:14
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shdbcamping
I've never been in a CC, but this does not even resemble a contest that could "crown" any team as winner. It seems to have become convoluted to the 'extreme', confusing and not much of a challenge at all.
What? Did NATO take control of the CC too? You can't please everyone, this is true. But this is no longer anything I can get excited about any longer.
Let's come up with another contest name for whatever this has turned into and allow the CC to RIP with dignity...
JIMO, YMMV.
Sean
Kinda my feelings on this right now too. When it was founded it was a good idea, unfortunately now the only way EVGA/[H]/overclock.net could be in it is with some convoluted point system that will only hinder/handicap the competition. I really see no way EVGA/[H]/overclock.net can even compete in this anymore. From what i have read [H] seems like they wont compete at all. While CC will still be a good way to grow smaller teams together and bring attention to folding, i believe EVGA as a team has outgrown the competition. Nothing good but hard feelings between teams will come from us competing.
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 12:11:22
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I simply do not like the proposed point scheme.....If they look at months there is too much variations due to tons of variables....if they look at weeks we are at a disadvantage as well, as we are already partly ramped up for the folding madness competition...
This is also forgetting that certain teems pick up a huge amount of points from folders that don't normally fold for them...Its not fair if we look at OCN's production now and set the point marker, then they have a HUGE ramp up like normal and smash us....
It is just not fair for anyone in any way, I say keep looking for better solutions. Why should evga give up the jade monkey because of an unfair point system?
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pgmoney
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 18:01:58
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Maybe simple is the way to go something like
each team has a goal to fold to based off previous year CC performance first to reach their goal wins.
EVGA folds to 35 million
OCN folds to 30 million
the rest of the teams keep the 20 million goal
now the power house teams are handicapped giving the other teams a fair shot considering we would be folding almost double the points they have to reach as their goal.
Sorry had to post my .02 again after reading many other forums and their unwillingness to compete in the CC 2011
sounds fair to me simple but more fair then a formula based on non CC points.
or if other teams don't want to compete we can just keep the jaded monkey here at evga.
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troy8d
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 18:34:38
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I'm with you guys as well. The "proposal" is leaving too many arbitrary factors unaccounted for and the "fairer" someone tries to make things, the more unfair it becomes. "OCN can raise their output significantly"...the problem comes when you try to quantify this. And then if you factor it in, they no longer have true incentive to do so as they can no longer gain an edge by doing so. Some members of [H] have stated they will help out MPC. How many and to what degree? Get this wrong and you're tremendously helping or hurting MPC. I think pgmoney has a very good idea in basing it on last year's CC performance rather than some arbitrarily contrived factors that are subject to manipulation by interested parties. I would up the ante however, and make something along the lines of your points goal is 20-30 times your PPD in the last CC. This means, it should take you around 2 weeks to reach that goal. Advantages: - Its fair to all teams involved.
- It measures increase in output/participation year over year rather than total raw output (we always want everyone producing more).
- There are no arbitrary factors involved here - if [H] wants to throw their weight behind a team this year...then that will be taken into account next year. The same for one team being able to ramp up production for the CC.
- It becomes a true annual competition with somewhat consistent comparisons.
- We are actually encouraging teams to add to their ranks throughout the year and come out strong for the CC.
- There are no incentives to cheat/rig the system.
Disadvantages: - EVGA Folding would not be crippled out of the competition before the contest even begins.
I would certainly get behind a contest like this and be excited about it as it is truly a competition and still takes into account differing production capabilities of different teams. I am lukewarm at best to the current CC proposal.
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 19:53:08
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Yup, I agree with you guys....Simpler is better.
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Barbarossa
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 22:22:19
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Guys, I can see your cocerns, and do share them. I also braught them up in the captains forum. But I also say lets be good sportsmen, accept the challenge, and show them we can beat them regardless. On Tuesday I had made another proposition another possibility could be to set individual targets for the teams
taking easy numbers here for the math. Lets assume 50% participation and a 10 day race
team A has a 10 mil average, so with 50% their assumed chimp ppd would be 5 million. Stretch that to 10 days and their target would be 50 million
team B has a 50 mil average, with 50% its 2.5 mil and over 10 days their target would be 25 mil but so far I only got 1 response from Zodac (captain for OCN) It is quite clear, the other captains don´t want a pure race for points, and at the same time, they want each team to fold for a specific time. Some questions: Do you want me to tell them we´re not gonna participate just because we´re not the clear favourite? I´d say no , but will do it, if the vast majority wants me too Or do you want me to step down as captain? Then good luck to the next captain in convincing the other teams of a different system Or does anyone have another idea that fits the description? The points described by pgmoney for OCN and us are way too low. It would still only take both uf us a few days to complete it, even with only half of our team folding for the big one, whereas for most other teams it would still mean almost 2 weeks
post edited by Barbarossa - 2011/03/25 22:36:21
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 22:52:05
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why not a two tier race? Where two brackets of teams are given, for high tier and low tier. A race for an affable goal.
On the other hand, some will always see a problem with eVGA, since it's often muttered as a "paid" team by others...
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/25 23:31:26
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how about taking the total points for the last 1/2 year and dividing it by the number of users in the folding team and work out a % growth or perfomance increase over your average and come out with a total for a week for each team to acheive (different for each team..but based on their own team numbers) this is an automated process (just arithmetic) the idea is to force each team to perform it's best and to bring new members in this would result in a percentage race where the one that can get their own team to output and grow during the competition would win then a small team would have just as much a chance of beating a big one and don't say this is unfair because every team will have to bring out as many members as they can to do it. If we can't do it then we deserve to lose...for not getting are members to get off their B-Hinds and support the team or in attracting enough new members at the rate others are remember EVGA has a advantage here with the evga Folding Bucks enticing people to fold, where other teams do not or you run tiered levels (100,000,500,000,1m, 5m, 10m,20m,...etc) that would mean several chimp champs in this case the idea is to get as many people folding for your team to get more members folding to add more to your team and to introduce new people to folding by bringing atttention to it the idea is to get as many people folding for science (current folders and new ones) and to bring increased attention to folding
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2011/03/25 23:35:07
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troy8d
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 03:28:48
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Barbarossa
Guys, I can see your cocerns, and do share them. I also braught them up in the captains forum. But I also say lets be good sportsmen, accept the challenge, and show them we can beat them regardless.
On Tuesday I had made another proposition
another possibility could be to set individual targets for the teams
taking easy numbers here for the math. Lets assume 50% participation and a 10 day race
team A has a 10 mil average, so with 50% their assumed chimp ppd would be 5 million. Stretch that to 10 days and their target would be 50 million
team B has a 50 mil average, with 50% its 2.5 mil and over 10 days their target would be 25 mil
but so far I only got 1 response from Zodac (captain for OCN)
It is quite clear, the other captains don´t want a pure race for points, and at the same time, they want each team to fold for a specific time.
Some questions:
Do you want me to tell them we´re not gonna participate just because we´re not the clear favourite? I´d say no , but will do it, if the vast majority wants me too
Or do you want me to step down as captain? Then good luck to the next captain in convincing the other teams of a different system
Or does anyone have another idea that fits the description?
The points described by pgmoney for OCN and us are way too low. It would still only take both uf us a few days to complete it, even with only half of our team folding for the big one, whereas for most other teams it would still mean almost 2 weeks
I don't want a contest where we are the clear favorite. I don't want a contest where anyone is the clear favorite. I want a contest that is fair for everyone - that is what makes it exciting and worth competing in. Nor do I think you should step down as captain. You've been put in a tough position by coming into the game late (not your fault). Do the best you can lobbying on our behalf, you've got the support of the community. As far as the other captains go...they can't have it both ways - if you race for a period of time, points are going to be what decides the victory. Did you ready my modification to pgmoney's idea? See my previous post (hopefully I wasn't too delirious when writing it), but I'll reiterate it briefly again: Take last years CC PPD for each team. Multiply it by 20-30 (or maybe more if you think it will still be over too quickly) and that is the goal that each team races to. For instance, say last year we produced 4 million PPD, now we have to produce 120 million points to win and another team produced 1 million PPD, they only need 30 million points to win. It seems like a much more tangible and fair way of enacting the general goals (more balanced) they have set out to accomplish this year without resorting to arbitrarily imposing sanctions on individual teams.
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shdbcamping
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 04:27:22
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What Troy said. Seems fair and can be repeated every year. Maybe it'll get recruiting going by teams in the couple months prior to the CC. Everyone will always know what they need to do the next year to more adequately compete if neccessary 
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Barbarossa
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 04:44:36
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The problem with taking last years cc numbers is, that the whole points scheme has changed so much. Since then the gpu3 client (for Fermis)has come out, and bigadv has become available for the win smp client. So it doesn´t require going linux, or a vm route any more. To give you an idea on last years ppd have a look at the stats from last year http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/chimp_challenge/ IIrc, the total ppd for our team was somewhere around 10-12 million ppd (an all time high back then) Currently the´s not much lobbying I can do, the last post in the captains forum was on the 24th, and was Zodacs reply to my idea (as posted above) Btw, currently the months in question for taking the average are Nov, Dec and Jan, maybe Feb, but not March, so no team can influence their average any more by holding back. And points are gonna be the deciding factor either way. Either just pure folding points with a target set from an average (whether its last years cc, or some other months), or "chimp points" based on an average over several months and then fold for a specific time, where the team with the most points wins... Only one thing is clear, each team has to rally as many folders behind their chimp as possible to win edit: what if we would use last years, average to calculate this years base points, instead of an average over several random months? The folding for a specific time came up, as no team was supposed to have to drag across the finishing line like the last two years, where the winner took a week or less, and the last team needed a full month
post edited by Barbarossa - 2011/03/26 05:03:31
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troy8d
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 05:50:36
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If you handicap the race, then no team should be dragging across the finish so the time constraint is irrelevant. If you have a time constraint, you are going to have to use points as a measure to win. I am starting to get the impression that lots of ideas are flying around, but no one is really putting them together to formulate a coherent plan. Barbarossa
Btw, currently the months in question for taking the average are Nov, Dec and Jan, maybe Feb, but not March, so no team can influence their average any more by holding back.
And points are gonna be the deciding factor either way. Either just pure folding points with a target set from an average (whether its last years cc, or some other months),
or "chimp points" based on an average over several months and then fold for a specific time, where the team with the most points wins...
This temporarily patches things up and hides the problem. People will know it is coming next year. Yes, the vast majority of people probably will have forgotten about this by then and it will be a minor or non-issue, but that does not change the fact that it misaligns people's incentive to fold. If we have a proposed system that can avoid that, why not use that instead? Barbarossa
edit: what if we would use last years, average to calculate this years base points, instead of an average over several random months?
The folding for a specific time came up, as no team was supposed to have to drag across the finishing line like the last two years, where the winner took a week or less, and the last team needed a full month
That seems like it is essentially the same idea I was proposing, though based on some sort of "Chimp Points" rather than folding points. Whether you take our daily average...6.8 million multiply by 20 and have us race to 136 million folding points or award us 1 CP for every 6.8 million folding points the result will be exactly the same. Am I missing something? Perhaps you could expand upon the chimp points concept? At the end of the day, I prefer a target to race to rather than a designated time period and point accumulation simply because it is a unique contest concept. Then again, if the CC doesn't have that format we can always host our own contest that does.
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Barbarossa
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 06:57:02
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Points are always the deciding factor: Whether its which team reaches a certain point value (target) first, or whether it is which team accumulates the most points ( be it real folding points, or chimp points) in a certain time frame. There are two ideas behind racing for a specific time: - no team is supposed to have to drag across the finishing line like the last two years. Even if you set a team a target, they can reach within a certain time, it is still possible for them to not make it in that time and take a few extra days ( would not be a big deal for me either, but I´m not the one to make that decision alone  ) - All teams folding for the same amount of time, brings the most work for Stanford. For the past, the team which had reached its target, goes back to their usual 24/7 folding habit. People that have come back to folding just for the CC stop again. Microwaves and toasters are switched off again, and with summer cumming, a lot of stuff then is sent into summer vacation ( I did that last year, and will do it again this year) The chimp point system is as simple as that: We all fold under one user name for a specific time. For every specific point value (different for each team, based on whatever average) you get one 1 chimp point. In the end, the team with the most chimp points wins.
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Punchy
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 07:17:18
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Okay, here's an idea sure to get a lot of haters: since the overall idea is to increase production, why bother switching folding names to a chimp name? Why not use existing names, and let new people use their own names? Since the oneunit flag is needed to switch machines over, there is some delay from a few minutes to days between stopping and restarting in the chimp name, causing a temporary drop in production both before and after the contest. If you just pick dates and use overall team production, there are no before/after gaps any more.
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tank1023
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 07:23:40
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I kinda agree with Punchy. This way the guys that don't follow the forums (and don't switch) points will be taken into account.
If they base our handicap on our total PPD, were kinda screwed cause you all know only a small % switch clients and participate in the CC.
I'm not sure what is the correct way but a straight out race isn't fair.
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shdbcamping
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 08:43:18
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I'm still behind Troy's idea. Base it on last years CC results somehow. This way, the actual team that did the most recruiting/retention for the Science will be the next years winner. If we're going to blow out all this "best for science" argument as the reason for the contest, this is the BEST way to punctuate the argument. Simple.... do better than last year and you'll do better than last year  Sean
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 10:02:14
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I am also wondering if EVGA is going to advertise the chimp challenge like the last few years, I know for sure that was probably a significant boost.
Excluding this month from the time used to estimate Chimp Points makes me feel a little better, but I still do not believe it will be possible to fairly estimate for teams like MPC and OCN who have gigantic boosts during the CC because teams not participating will send WUs their way....
I was thinking perhaps just using the folding names on a team to generate points for said team. This allows the estimation to be done fairly, so we are competing against MPC not MPC + XX% of [h]. Face it, we are competing as teams, and those teams can outproduce their estimates with help from other teams, so we simply disallow that help....The teams are represented as MPC and OCN, not "MPC and friends" so why allow them to get a clump of people not on their teams?
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pgmoney
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 10:41:53
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maybe try this formula.
post edited by pgmoney - 2011/03/26 10:55:06
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 10:50:40
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only issue with using "biggest boost since last CC/biggest boost over normal PPD," is basically smaller teams get a massive boost if a few powerful folders switch over to their team.
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troy8d
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 10:55:17
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ablearcher
only issue with using "biggest boost since last CC/biggest boost over normal PPD," is basically smaller teams get a massive boost if a few powerful folders switch over to their team.
Only once.
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shdbcamping
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 10:55:58
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Coresair
I am also wondering if EVGA is going to advertise the chimp challenge like the last few years, I know for sure that was probably a significant boost.
Excluding this month from the time used to estimate Chimp Points makes me feel a little better, but I still do not believe it will be possible to fairly estimate for teams like MPC and OCN who have gigantic boosts during the CC because teams not participating will send WUs their way....
I was thinking perhaps just using the folding names on a team to generate points for said team. This allows the estimation to be done fairly, so we are competing against MPC not MPC + XX% of [h]. Face it, we are competing as teams, and those teams can outproduce their estimates with help from other teams, so we simply disallow that help....The teams are represented as MPC and OCN, not "MPC and friends" so why allow them to get a clump of people not on their teams?
I can't be sure but that's both hard to prove and a bit paranoid. IMO
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shdbcamping
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 11:01:52
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troy8d
ablearcher
only issue with using "biggest boost since last CC/biggest boost over normal PPD," is basically smaller teams get a massive boost if a few powerful folders switch over to their team.
Only once.
+++++++++
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zerran2001
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Re:Official chimp challenge 2011 thread
2011/03/26 11:20:15
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Hey guys,
First thing i want to add to this is, Barbarossa is doing a great job he is bringing the teams concerns to the captains forums, and as he has said Since he got in late the other captains had pretty much already set the rules. He is putting a lot of effort into this.
With that being said, we are team EVGA the #1 folding team in the world we are always gonna have a million people watching every move we make. Lets conduct our selves accordingly, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just a friendly reminder.
Whatever the scoring turns out to be in the end, we just need to prepare and come together as a team 100%. We can overcome any obstacle, I'm not saying don't voice your concern. Because we want this to be a fair fight all around. If the points are closer it will force EVERY team to get more hardware or recruit even more and will only benefit science in the end.
From my experience with the contests, their will always be someone out to cheat just to win. So hopefully the captains can come together on something fair. Its not gonna be 100% perfect the first time out, it will take practice on getting in right. But in the end i think it will make everyone push harder.
I back Barbarossa 100% on everything he is doing, remember this is a huge team and hes gonna need help through the process.
With all that being said ,(sorry for the wall of text, but i can't get on here much during the week) We will come to the show ready to fold either way. Preparing is the hardest part of the battle.
Fold On Brothers!
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