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My suggestions to EVGA

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daemonowner
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2014/08/18 19:26:07 (permalink)
I just made this account here to voice my suggestion. I'm a nobody, ignore me if you like, but this comes from my experiences at LinusTechTips forums.
 
I'm not going to claim full responsibility for this, but when I first came to LTTforums literally every thread where someone was asking for power supply suggestions was filled with recommendations to buy the Corsair RM Series. Even when they weren't appropriate (for budget or Wattage reasons), and often people would recommend much higher Wattage units than needed. Someone even said to me they were some of the best power supplies ever made. I began challenging people whenever they recommended an RM Series unit, asking them why they believed it to be so good, pointing out the poor capacitors, and giving other suggestions. Over time, the climate has changed. Almost all threads are now full of people suggesting the EVGA G2 Series, unfortunately even in situations where they need ~500W. Which brings me to my first recommendation.
 
1. The RM Series is increasingly uncompetitive at higher Wattages. At the 750W mark and above, they're demolished in price and performance by the G2's and others. When looking for competition around the 550W mark however, I realized there aren't very many fully-modular 80Plus Gold units. The RM550 makes the most sense of all the RM Series. XFX's XTR 550W would be nice, except the availability is poor, and the reports of XFX's customer service aren't exactly stellar. To outcompete the RM550, you need a fully-modular, 80Plus Gold 550W unit with comparable performance, better capacitors (preferably full Japanese), good aesthetics and silent operation, and the ability to say "Superflower-made, ~9.7/10 Jonnyguru.com Recommended". In my experience on LTTforums, semi-modular won't cut it, and anything below 80Plus Gold won't either. They don't buy for the electrical performance. They buy because of "Silence-Optimization", "80Plus Gold certification", and "Full modularity", and the aesthetics of the RM Series.
I'm not sure what you were thinking when you made the G1 and B1 Series, but to me the G1 Series was a perfect opportunity to extend down to the lower Wattages with competitive Gold-rated units that people like me could really recommend over the lower RM Series. Something like the Cooler Master V and VS Series'. Maybe the G1 wouldn't be as good electrically as the G2's, and maybe the OEM would be different (See next point), and maybe the capacitors wouldn't be 100% 105C Japanese, but it would hold its own against the RM450+, and maybe beat it in performance or price. Do this, and you could make the entire RM Series uncompetitive.
 
2. Drop FSP. Nobody is raving about the performance of your NEX units. They're coasting on the reputation you've gained with Superflower. Many people I see on LTT recommend the FSP-made units and reference a jonnyguru review of the G2 750W as though they were the same series. Superflower made you in the PSU market. You would be an NZXT or Fractal Design if not for the deal you struck with them. You aren't branding your FSP Aurums with Jonnyguru.com recommendations for obvious reasons. They haven't reviewed them (which probably isn't a coincidence), and they just aren't that impressive.
And it looks to me like you're branding the new FSP G1 Series similarly to the G2 Series, possibly to continue misleading people into buying or recommending those units. Please don't do that.
 
Corsair right now is coasting on their reputation, lowering the quality of their cases and power supplies, and keeping the price premium. You have the opportunity to really damage Corsair's reputation and take a lot of their market from them, and I believe Superflower is the key to this. Remind people of the quality that Corsair was known for, and then show them how your products are better in every way.
Also, send a review sample to Linus. If it survives being thrown off a roof he thinks it's because the PSU performs excellently. His audience is large, and a couple of his reviews of the RM Series was the reason they were recommended so widely.
 
And a tip you might like to know. Power supplies are overpriced here in NZ. Availability isn't good, and the only real options are Corsair and Cooler Master. Feel free to burst onto the scene, displacing the $458NZ RM1000 and other overpriced Corsair units. See if you can make a deal with PBtech. They have your GPUs, but not your PSUs.
post edited by daemonowner - 2014/08/18 19:31:22
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    sahafiec
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/18 21:46:49 (permalink)
    I don't know if EVGA is searching for suggestions but as a customer I agree on each single point.
     
    the topic somehow states the situation here:
    http://forums.evga.com/An...versions-m2201993.aspx
    post edited by sahafiec - 2014/08/18 21:54:56

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    #2
    notfordman
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/18 22:33:33 (permalink)
    I don't know why you said your a nobody, I think you have some good points. EVGA should look at your suggestions, and consider them. Welcome to the forums.  
    #3
    martinch
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/19 10:17:07 (permalink)
    Indeed, I too would love to see some very high quality "smaller" units.  For example, I'm looking at building a Haswell i7-based PC with a GTX 760 or 770, 2 HDDs, SSD, and an optical drive - the estimated peak power usage is under 450W, and I have no intention of using SLI. 
     
    If I look at the high-quality options, my choices essentially are the SuperFlower Leadex Gold or Seasonic X-Series Platinum ~450-500W fanless units (only 1 UK retailer stocks each), the Seasonic X-Series Platinum 660W (only 2 UK retailers stock it), and the Corsair AX760 or EVGA SuperNova G2/Superflower Leadex Gold 750W (excellent, but overkill).  Ultimately, it ends up a choice between the EVGA and Corsair ~750W units, purely based on availability.
     
    As a final note, it would be nice if the SuperNova G2 were a little shorter - at 180mm, it makes it difficult to use the bottom fan mount in the Fractal Design Define R4 (by comparison, the Corsair unit's 160mm).

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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/19 12:25:09 (permalink)
    Thanks for the input on this, some very sound suggestions, I cannot promise anything but I have already discussed this with Jacob.  We definitely appreciate your feedback and thoughts on this, and that you are interested in expanding our brand.
    #5
    vsg28
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/19 13:36:28 (permalink)
    Some nice points in there!
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    shlunky11
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/19 17:38:38 (permalink)
    I agree with this stuff.  
    I have had the need for two lower power PSU's for a pfsense based router as well as a home server.  I went with the Captsone 450-M that was powering the server, but has been migrated over to the router, and my AX850 has been moved to the server.
     
    I would LOVE to see a high quality unit in the 350-550 range that had more than just 5 SATA connectors.  Those adapters are ugly and annoying.
    EVGA ended up getting my more business from myself anyway since I bought a 1000p2 to replace the ax850 in my main PC.
     
     
    Hope to see some higher higher quality lower wattage units from someone else besides just Rosewill and Seasonic..
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    wmmills
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/19 20:19:52 (permalink)
    daemonowner
    I just made this account here to voice my suggestion. I'm a nobody, ignore me if you like, but this comes from my experiences at LinusTechTips forums.
     
    I'm not going to claim full responsibility for this, but when I first came to LTTforums literally every thread where someone was asking for power supply suggestions was filled with recommendations to buy the Corsair RM Series. Even when they weren't appropriate (for budget or Wattage reasons), and often people would recommend much higher Wattage units than needed. Someone even said to me they were some of the best power supplies ever made. I began challenging people whenever they recommended an RM Series unit, asking them why they believed it to be so good, pointing out the poor capacitors, and giving other suggestions. Over time, the climate has changed. Almost all threads are now full of people suggesting the EVGA G2 Series, unfortunately even in situations where they need ~500W. Which brings me to my first recommendation.
     
    1. The RM Series is increasingly uncompetitive at higher Wattages. At the 750W mark and above, they're demolished in price and performance by the G2's and others. When looking for competition around the 550W mark however, I realized there aren't very many fully-modular 80Plus Gold units. The RM550 makes the most sense of all the RM Series. XFX's XTR 550W would be nice, except the availability is poor, and the reports of XFX's customer service aren't exactly stellar. To outcompete the RM550, you need a fully-modular, 80Plus Gold 550W unit with comparable performance, better capacitors (preferably full Japanese), good aesthetics and silent operation, and the ability to say "Superflower-made, ~9.7/10 Jonnyguru.com Recommended". In my experience on LTTforums, semi-modular won't cut it, and anything below 80Plus Gold won't either. They don't buy for the electrical performance. They buy because of "Silence-Optimization", "80Plus Gold certification", and "Full modularity", and the aesthetics of the RM Series.
    I'm not sure what you were thinking when you made the G1 and B1 Series, but to me the G1 Series was a perfect opportunity to extend down to the lower Wattages with competitive Gold-rated units that people like me could really recommend over the lower RM Series. Something like the Cooler Master V and VS Series'. Maybe the G1 wouldn't be as good electrically as the G2's, and maybe the OEM would be different (See next point), and maybe the capacitors wouldn't be 100% 105C Japanese, but it would hold its own against the RM450+, and maybe beat it in performance or price. Do this, and you could make the entire RM Series uncompetitive.
     
    2. Drop FSP. Nobody is raving about the performance of your NEX units. They're coasting on the reputation you've gained with Superflower. Many people I see on LTT recommend the FSP-made units and reference a jonnyguru review of the G2 750W as though they were the same series. Superflower made you in the PSU market. You would be an NZXT or Fractal Design if not for the deal you struck with them. You aren't branding your FSP Aurums with Jonnyguru.com recommendations for obvious reasons. They haven't reviewed them (which probably isn't a coincidence), and they just aren't that impressive.
    And it looks to me like you're branding the new FSP G1 Series similarly to the G2 Series, possibly to continue misleading people into buying or recommending those units. Please don't do that.
     
    Corsair right now is coasting on their reputation, lowering the quality of their cases and power supplies, and keeping the price premium. You have the opportunity to really damage Corsair's reputation and take a lot of their market from them, and I believe Superflower is the key to this. Remind people of the quality that Corsair was known for, and then show them how your products are better in every way.
    Also, send a review sample to Linus. If it survives being thrown off a roof he thinks it's because the PSU performs excellently. His audience is large, and a couple of his reviews of the RM Series was the reason they were recommended so widely.
     
    And a tip you might like to know. Power supplies are overpriced here in NZ. Availability isn't good, and the only real options are Corsair and Cooler Master. Feel free to burst onto the scene, displacing the $458NZ RM1000 and other overpriced Corsair units. See if you can make a deal with PBtech. They have your GPUs, but not your PSUs.


    I gotta say I agree with a lot of your points and would probably add that EVGA def should look to making those higher quality/rated lower wattage units just because of the lower power draw on the Maxwell gpu line coming and the lower power draws with Intels new lines. Theres def going to be a big opportunity to cash in on those lower wattage quality units very soon.

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    daemonowner
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/20 00:33:40 (permalink)
    An idea for how to market it would be as follows
    Extend the G1 or G2 series down and market them as the RM Killers.
    Extend the P2's down and market them as the HXi and lower AXi Killers
    And if the T2 1600W is up to scratch, market it as the AX1500i Killer.
    At every turn, remind people that your units are Killers, beating Corsair's products at every turn in performance and price.
     
    (And in case you don't like the idea of referring to Corsair's products in name in your adverts, you wouldn't run into any issues by getting forum users like myself to refer to them as Corsair Killers of our own free will).
    post edited by daemonowner - 2014/08/20 00:42:16
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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/20 16:09:08 (permalink)
    daemonowner
     
    And if the T2 1600W is up to scratch, market it as the AX1500i Killer.
    At every turn, remind people that your units are Killers, beating Corsair's products at every turn in performance and price.




    According to JonnyGURU our G2 is almost there now.
    "Ripple? No anomalies to speak of. Voltage regulation? Out of this world. Efficiency? Promise Gold, actually give Platinum. This thing got so close in performance to Corsair's AX1500i that I'm not sure I'd buy one over this unit even if I won the lottery tomorrow and wanted the absolute best. I mean, read this page again..."  (from the Summary paragraph)
     
    That is a pretty high statement from JonnyGURU, as we all know he does not pull punches. 
    Looking forward to seeing some of our future models in action and bench-tests.
     
    Thanks again for the enthusiasm for our PSU brand!
    #10
    daemonowner
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/20 16:38:27 (permalink)
    Yep, read that review. Made a thread about it on the LTTforums. Can't link it here I believe. The review was from OklahomaWolf not Jonnyguru btw. The reason you would need to label the T2 as the AX1500i killer is that people buy based on labels like "80Plus Titanium Certified". Similar to what I said in the original post about people buying based on the little differences like full modularity on the RM's vs semi-modularity on Seasonic G's and CM VS's.
     
    Comparing the Jonnyguru.com reviews of the P2 1200W against the AX1200i supports what I said above about Corsair Killers. Admittedly these reviews are from different people, presumably using different equipment and methods, but still.
    Voltage Regulation: AX1200i showed 0.9% on the 3.3V, 1.2% on the 5V, and 0.22% on the 12V. The P2 1200W showed 0.3% on the 3.3V, 0% on the 5V, and 0.7% on the 12V. Handily beaten on average, though AX1200i 12V is unreal.
    Ripple Suppression: <13mv on all rails for the AX1200i. Really damn good. The P2 shows 15mv on the 12V and <10mv on the minors. Same if not better.
    Efficiency: AX1200i needed 1% error to reach Platinum, P2 clears it easily.
    Build Quality: Excellent for both. Advantage probably goes to the Flextronics-made AX1200i if anything.
    Both fully-modular, good aesthetics and cabling, good warranties (though 10 > 7).
    To me, it comes down to price. And the P2 is a good $50 or so cheaper (judged by US PCPP). P2 is also cheaper than the Seasonic Platinum 1200W and CM V1200.
    post edited by daemonowner - 2014/08/20 17:02:19
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    Vlada011
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    Re: My suggestions to EVGA 2014/08/20 16:39:26 (permalink)
    EVGA make crazy good job with PSU, she beat so many players for one year on PSU market and become top recommendation from
    750-1600W. Even now Super Flower people look more serious than ever. 

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