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I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclocking!

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himmatsj
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2016/05/25 11:49:30 (permalink)
First off, Power limit, Temperature limit and Fan curve are identical.

Stock: 1216/1279 with boost 2.0 max of 1418MHz

I never over clocked in my life before, but with MSI Afterburner, it's just too tempting, and got the better of me today.

To my knowledge, overclocking causes a rise in temperature. Given that I was already hitting 80C at stock settings, I absolutely didn't think it would actually benefit me.

But lo and behold, I added first a 45MHz OC, then bumped it up to 80Hz. This is for core, memory is the same.

And to my biggest surprise, at a given temperature, I was now running a much higher clock!

After 20 minutes of 99% GPU load stress testing, at stock settings it goes from 1418 to 1354/1367.

But after OC, I'm letting the stress test now for 30 minutes, and it's not gone below 1418MHz! It is oscillating at 1430/1418MHz.

Fan profile is 45%, 80C temp limit and 100% power limit., both before and after OC.

Somebody please explain this sorcery to me!
post edited by himmatsj - 2016/05/25 11:51:47
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    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:05:25 (permalink)
    OK, the oscillating between 1430 and 1418 is due to throttling because you are probably hitting your Temperature Limit. You really should create a variable custom fan curve to increase fan speed according to temps rather than a steady speed. You should also slide your Power Limit all of the way to the right and click apply so it doesn't hold you back. So far your overclock is looking good. You should concentrate mostly on your Core Clock for best results before you start increasing your Memory Clock. There is only so much power available before you reach the TDP of the video board and the Core Clock will give you better performance increases than the Memory Clock speed will. Once you reach your maximum Core Clock then start increasing your Memory Clock. I have never run my Memory more than +250 MHz.
    #2
    himmatsj
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:12:45 (permalink)
    Zuhl3156
    OK, the oscillating between 1430 and 1418 is due to throttling because you are probably hitting your Temperature Limit. You really should create a variable custom fan curve to increase fan speed according to temps rather than a steady speed. You should also slide your Power Limit all of the way to the right and click apply so it doesn't hold you back. So far your overclock is looking good. You should concentrate mostly on your Core Clock for best results before you start increasing your Memory Clock. There is only so much power available before you reach the TDP of the video board and the Core Clock will give you better performance increases than the Memory Clock speed will. Once you reach your maximum Core Clock then start increasing your Memory Clock. I have never run my Memory more than +250 MHz.




    No, that's besides the point. I wasn't even serious about overclocking.
     
    The thing is, I want to understand, why is it I am running much higher clocks at lower temperatures AFTER giving my GPU a pretty decent +80MHz core clock (I could go higher, but I really don't understand OC-ing yet and would rather stop before I cause damage).
     
    Surely something doesn't add up here. Why is it at stock settings, I am throttling down to 1354MHz from a high of 1418MHz...and AFTER the overclock I am going from a high of 1497MHz down to 1418MHz at minimum.
     
    I was always under the impression an OC will heat up the system more. But, I am monitoring the voltages and power consumption, and the before/after of applying the OC, it shows no difference in the voltage/power of the system. Heck, before the OC at 1206mV I run at 1418MHz, and after the OC at the same voltage level I am running at 1497MHz. The power usage under full load is around 92-95%, both before and after the OC.
     
    My mind just cannot process how this is possible.
    #3
    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:20:07 (permalink)
    It can be mind boggling that is for sure. Nothing you can do using MSI Afterburner will damage your video board. The best way to see what is holding you back is to run GPU-Z in the background when you run your benchmark and see what the 'PerfCap' reason is after the run. https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/
    It will be color coded so you can tell what caused the clocks to drop. It might be that there isn't sufficient load to require your video board to run the clocks that high.
    #4
    Sajin
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:24:41 (permalink)
    Sounds like your card still had room for improvement within the same power level. How is it possible? Simple... your card's gpu must be a really good efficient chip.
    #5
    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:27:26 (permalink)
    Sajin
    Sounds like your card still had room for improvement within the same power level. How is it possible? Simple... your card's gpu must be a really good efficient chip.


    Yep, Silicone Lottery winner for sure.
    #6
    himmatsj
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:34:31 (permalink)
    Sajin
    Sounds like your card still had room for improvement within the same power level. How is it possible? Simple... your card's gpu must be a really good efficient chip.




    Is there a way to determine how much I can push within this power level (without contributing to a rise in temperature)? Is the a danger, if say I put a +300MHz clock and the GPU bursts?
     
    I have a ASIC of 83% if that's what you mean by GPU lottery.
     
    I'm trying to search on the Internet but have found no answers as to why this is the case for me. Everywhere, it mentions overclock will lead to rise in temperatures.
     
    I hope somebody from EVGA can help explain why is the full potential of the card within the same power/voltage/temperature settings no unlocked from the get go.
    #7
    Sajin
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:39:48 (permalink)
    himmatsj
    Sajin
    Sounds like your card still had room for improvement within the same power level. How is it possible? Simple... your card's gpu must be a really good efficient chip.




    Is there a way to determine how much I can push within this power level (without contributing to a rise in temperature)? Is the a danger, if say I put a +300MHz clock and the GPU bursts?
     
    I have a ASIC of 83% if that's what you mean by GPU lottery.
     
    I'm trying to search on the Internet but have found no answers as to why this is the case for me. Everywhere, it mentions overclock will lead to rise in temperatures.
     
    I hope somebody from EVGA can help explain why is the full potential of the card within the same power/voltage/temperature settings no unlocked from the get go.


    Yeah, just keep upping the clock until the card crashes. The card has a temp limit so it's going try and keep the card at 80c no matter how far you push the clocks. Putting +300 would most likely just cause the gpu to crash. Crashing because of high clocks can be fixed by resetting precision x.
    #8
    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:40:18 (permalink)
    LOL, no the GPU chip will not burst but your drivers will stop responding and crash. An ASIC of 83% is great. Mine are only 79.0 and 79.3
    #9
    ragevirusqq
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:45:04 (permalink)
    I have had 7 evga cards in the 900 series in my possession and none of them had an asic quality higher than 78. SO grats there on the lottery. It could be that you just have a great chip and when running at the higher frequency it is happy.
     
    the only way to see what you can get too at what temp and frequency is to test it. i would push it up till it crashes or you see temps you arent happy with then dial it back a bit say -25. test again and use the MV slider to bring it stable if needed. just for reference my 980ti's in SLI run totally stable at +135 core +25Mv which nets 1506 with the power slider all they way to 110% and priority on temp. This is watercooled but if you adjust your fan speed and its not thermal throttling then I be happy.   

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    ragevirusqq
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:47:22 (permalink)
    Zuhl and Sajin both know there shi t. so its great the have an eye on the thread. They have offered me a ton of awesome input in the past.  

    CaseLabs SM8 - X99 Classified - EVGA 1080ti - 5930k @ 4.5 - 32GB Hyper X predator - 480mm x2 and 360mm rads for super low fan speed and quiet operation- EK blocks and pump/res - All Bitspower black fittings - 1Tb samsung 850 evo 2tb total ssd space - EVGA 1300G2 - Predator X34 - Mayflower Objective 2 DAC/AMP - Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro - Sennheiser HD6xx - Mackie CR4 monitors
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    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 12:48:43 (permalink)
    From what I can see so far you should be able to easily reach +100 with room to spare. Maybe even +150?
    post edited by Zuhl3156 - 2016/05/25 13:01:40
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    himmatsj
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 13:22:00 (permalink)
    I will try tomorrow. For now, just with the clock increase by +80, my Firestrike has gone from 7943 to 8197. I used to hit a peak of 75C running this benchmark, and same case after OC.

    In Hitman, it's increased from 61.6fps to 63.6fps. The increase should be bigger, but here my CPU is a bottleneck in a few spots. In many areas though, I can see 5fps difference from before.

    I just don't want to be greedy. I never even intended to overclock for long term, I just wanted to experiment and see the side effect of applying an OC. Very surprised to see there has been no actual observable side effect.

    I also still want to understand about what's happening in my case here, cause there's still unexplained stuff.
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    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 13:28:48 (permalink)
    It wasn't that long ago that many of us, including myself, had the same questions and concerns. We will do our best to help you understand anything you need help with. Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. So, anything you want to know just ask and we will be happy to help.
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    himmatsj
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/25 23:03:16 (permalink)
    Ok guys, in my case above, where I have not touched the voltage or power settings, will there still be a theoretical reduction in the lifespan of the GPU or other similar side effects? Or is this truly a "free" performance boost in every sense of the word?

    Cause on the Internet, it says the side effects of overclocking are mainly three things: higher temperature, unstable behaviour/crashing, and lowered lifespan. From my observation and stress testing, it seems temperature is either the same or if it has increased then it is by a negligible amount, and stability is the same as before with no crashing while running a bunch of benchmarks.

    What other possible side effects could there be that I am missing out on?
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    Zuhl3156
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/26 07:28:07 (permalink)
    Higher temps can be compensated for using the fan profile. Unstable behavior only happens when you push your clock rates too far. This is how you find your board's limit. After it becomes unstable just back it down 10 to 20 MHz and you are good. Nothing you can do using Afterburner, including boosting the voltage, will damage your board. There are voltage and power limits built into your VBIOS that will insure the longevity of your video board by keeping you from exceeding the preset limits. Shortening the lifespan of the video board is a risk that you take when you 'mod' or modify your VBIOS to unlock the preset limits. This is a risky procedure and is usually only done by 'power users' who want every little bit of performance available. The minor overclocking that you are doing now will not harm your video board. The benefits are smoother gameplay with higher Frames per Second. You have been blessed with a very nice GPU chip and it is up to you whether you wish to take advantage of the extra performance available to you. I never overclocked my video boards until I got my first EVGA GTX-680 and never modded a VBIOS until I got my MSI GTX-980 Gaming 4G boards I am using now. I have watercooling so I don't need to worry about temperatures. I rarely go over 45°C even when gaming for an hour or more. I can understand your concern with this being your very first video board purchase. If you are happy with your gaming results then you don't have to OC. It is just free performance for the taking if you are willing to experiment with finding the maximum stable clock speeds.
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    unmeaty
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/26 07:39:37 (permalink)
    Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but could one of you helpful gurus take a look at my thread on overclocking in sli with two different base clock speeds?
     
    http://forums.evga.com/Overclocking-advice-needed-for-two-980Ti-hybrids-with-different-clock-speeds-m2483844.aspx
     
    I've found so much conflicting information it's driving me crazy.
     
    And congrats himmatsj, sounds like you got a great GPU for overclocking. Ride that wave!
     

     
     
    #17
    himmatsj
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    Re: I'm completely dumbfounded - Lower temperatures per given clock speed when overclockin 2016/05/26 17:42:17 (permalink)
    I've been thinking about the Power consumption and temperature of GPUs and did some research and came up with a theory for this to satisfy myself. This may or may not be common knowledge, I don't know.
     
    As we all know, P = V * I
     
    Given that the voltage is being untouched, that means the V in the above equation is a constant.
     
    That leaves I, the current. There appear to be a number of components on a GPU that could possibly utilize current. The major one obviously is the GPU core itself, and there appear to be others like the VPU, MCU and Bus.
     
    A GPU that is already at 99% utilization for the core is already maxing out the current available to the core. A common understanding is that the GPU core will be the first to reach 99% utilization, and in turn it ends up being the bottleneck for other components on the GPU.
     
    Now, when applying an overclock, the core clock speed is increased, which causes its performance to increase. What this means is that, the other components on the GPU (like the VPU, MCU and Bus mentioned above) are able to up their utilization a bit more. Maybe the MCU and Bus were at 70% utilization when the core clock speed is 1250MHz. When increasing the core clock to 1350MHz, the MCU and Bus could increase to 75% utilization.
     
    This is a small increase, but based on what little observation I have done, it is these supplementary components on the GPU that contribute to an ever so slight increase in the current passing through the GPU. So, this leads to a slightly higher "I" value.
     
    Of course, if the voltage values are increased, then the GPU temps will increase noticeably. But by only increasing the core clock without touching the voltage, one could theoretically increase the clock speeds by +100MHz on a 900-series card and see very little if at all any rise in temperature. 
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