I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling?

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OV3RCLK4
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2010/10/25 15:46:38 (permalink)
I was looking at some peltiers. Which one should I get? How many watts? Check my mods rigs for my current cooling setup.

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    yellow__fever
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 07:51:49 (permalink)
    Depends on what you're cooling with your peltier, if it's going directly on the CPU heatspreader then you'll need about 200W for a 4.0GHz overclock. If you're using it to chill your water in your res or something you can get away with multiple 50W or something.
     
    EDIT: If those modrig pictures are still current then your top radiator fans should be mounted the other way, exhausting up. Heat rises naturally, so help it along.
    post edited by yellow__fever - 2010/10/26 07:53:58

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    OV3RCLK4
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 09:13:39 (permalink)
    I've tried the fans both ways, and did plenty of testing. They work best as intake believe it or not. Cpu temps -3c and Vreg and NB temps -8c. Thats the difference between intake and outake.
     
    Now the peltier will most likely go directly onto the cpu. I dont think using it to chill my water would make as much of a difference as it would being directly on the cpu. My Cpu wattage is closer to 250 watts because of my high Vcore.

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    OV3RCLK4
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 10:13:36 (permalink)
    I dont think I need a 200 watt peltier. My friend is telling me a 65-100 watt would be just fine. You can freeze water with a 60 watt peltier. I want to try and avoid insulating my cpu and board, unless its totally necessary. 
     
    How much of a temperature drop would I see? Currently at 1.45 Vcore, 1.45 VTT and HT ON at 4.06ghz I am getting max temps near 76c with my liquid cooling. So would a peltier drop me down to 50-60c? or just to around 70c?

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    Halo_003
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 10:29:59 (permalink)
    If you get a peltier anywhere in your system, insulate. I don't care if it's an 18W peltier or a 280W peltier. You will be glad you're safe, even if you don't really need insulation. Lephron is really the guy to talk to on this but I wouldn't use anything below a 200W peltier on an i7. When I ran ice water I was so glad I insulated the CPU socket, 'cause CPU temps were in the teens(*C) and I had water running along the tubing. So I used kneadable art eraser around the socket, a layer of shop towels over that, then the CPU block, more shop towels, then the tubing had to be wrapped in shop towels to stop the water forming on it.
     
    Sure a 60W peltier can freeze water, but can it freeze water that's putting out 200W of heat? Of course not. An extremely heavily OC'd i7 can put out as much as 300W, but for around 4.0-4.5Ghz I think it's around 200-250W under load.
     
    All in all, if you want to use it 24/7 be prepared to fully insulate everything on water. GPU is going to be harder though, but I'm not sure if you have it on water.

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    OV3RCLK4
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 11:22:33 (permalink)
    I would only need to insulate the cpu and motherboard correct? I would use my water cooling to cool the hot side of the peltier so none of that would need insulating right? I only have a cpu water loop.

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    lehpron
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 15:15:52 (permalink)
    OV3RCLK4
    Now the peltier will most likely go directly onto the cpu. I dont think using it to chill my water would make as much of a difference as it would being directly on the cpu.
    If you're going to simply add a TEC to your loop, it won't do anything of value other than raise your temperatures, it almost doesn't matter what wattage module(s) you intend on.  You can add more rads but from an energy efficiency sense, it just isn't efficient at all simply because the TEC is limited to pumping a certain amount, that past that the TEC will heat the source (coldside will be hotter than hotside).  So for your estimated 250W load, you'd need a unit that can pump 250W, which could dump almost 400W into your current loop raising your temps into the 90's without mercy, all costing you almost 600W of additional power.  As a result, I do not recommend putting the TEC directly on the heat source, unless it was a low-power source like just a chipset.  For one, the modules either don't exist to support the load or people cheap out and get something that renders high temps and they blame the TEC...
     
    If you're going to attempt a chiller, you must have the TEC cooled by a second separate loop, or an aircooler attached to a waterblock with the TEC sandwiched in between.  This way yes, you can use less wattage, 100W or less depending on how you configure it.  I've used an air-chiller of sorts on my GTX260 using a 72W TEC and a pair of HR-03's; my idle/load was 27/43 in a 25 ambient (no case); so it isn't impossible.
    Insulation is only an issue if under idle you chance the CPU dipping below ambient, especially with your high humidity FL locale; whether chiller or direct, when the CPU is in a low-power or idle state, the temps will drop like brick.
     
    What I'd do is plan ahead with a comfortable range of low and high temps, and configure your setup to push for that.  For example the chiller I tried would send temps in the 80's if I had the fans low, but the 40's if the fan were high.  The sway is giant due to the presense of the TEC, but you can tailor the sway like any regular cooler.  It a chore to keep track of, especially when too close to ambient, luckily for me, idle was always within 2-deg of ambient.
     
    BTW, ambient in your case may vary throughout the case, be warmer than your room or outside the house, what matters are the temps near-by a source of heat or a fan intake, no where else.  That is ambient for the specific case.

    TEC/Peltier definitions, formulas and temperature estimations

     For Intel processors, 0.122 x TDP = Continuous Amps at 12v [source].  
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    OV3RCLK4
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 15:26:49 (permalink)
    lehpron
    If you're going to attempt a chiller, you must have the TEC cooled by a second separate loop, or an aircooler attached to a waterblock with the TEC sandwiched in between.  This way yes, you can use less wattage, 100W or less depending on how you configure it.  I've used an air-chiller of sorts on my GTX260 using a 72W TEC and a pair of HR-03's; my idle/load was 27/43 in a 25 ambient (no case); so it isn't impossible.


     
    Im not sure I understand this. Do you mean a water chiller that would cool the water? You saying my liquid cooling would not be enough to keep the hot side temperature down?  I was thinking this was a cheap way to lower temps, but now im not so sure about it.  If there is a reasonably priced way to lower my temps, besides a peltier, what would it be?
     
    post edited by OV3RCLK4 - 2010/10/26 17:56:24

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    lehpron
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 19:58:30 (permalink)
    OV3RCLK4
    Do you mean a water chiller that would cool the water? You saying my liquid cooling would not be enough to keep the hot side temperature down?
    You say your current liquid loop maintains an approximate stable full load temperature of 70oC with an approximate 250W CPU load, correct?  Remember, TEC's aren't coolers, they are heat pumps and have a heavy requirement of additional power draw from your PSU and additional heat added to your loop to make them run.  That added heat is only going to push your temperatures up, so it is best to isolate it so its added heat doesn't affect the job of cooling your initial CPU loop.  This is why you need a second loop or, like I said, get an air cooler to cool the TEC's hotside while the coldside is connected through another water block, upstream of the CPU block.   Having it isolated from the loop also means you don't have to use a powerful TEC than if you applied it directly to the source. 
     
    If you intend on a direct to CPU application, then you need a module to pump more than what you CPU can put out in order to lower temperatures from 70, which can add another 380-400W of heat to your system loop because they don't pump for free.   That's like adding another two 280's into your CPU loop.
     
    But isolated, a 72W-120W module is more than enough because your existing liquid loop is pumping the rest of the heat out.  In my sig, the TEC thread, example 1.4b proves this works.  You just have to change the numbers to match what you have, or intend.
     
    I'd never recommend direct TEC appliciation to anyone, unless you wanted to try a TEC cascade, which is an insane method (mainly in power requirements above 800W for the TEC's and maybe need a massive secondary loop with triple triples).  Maybe I'll edit that thread and do an example 1.4c to show that someday...
     
    OV3RCLK4
    I was thinking this was a cheap way to lower temps, but now im not so sure about it.  If there is a reasonably priced way to lower my temps, besides a peltier, what would it be?
    If TEC's were a cheap way to lower temperatures, then more people would be into them, but they aren't (though they could be doing it wrong too). 
     
    There is a cheaper alternative to getting lower temps for typical liquid cooling, it's called 'get more radiators'.  Remember, overkill is subjective, but if you goal is lower temperatures in a liquid cooling system, then go for the most cost effective way first: A greater radiation surface area.    For example, I'm sure if you doubled what you have right now, that's worth every penny. 
     
    If it doesn't fit in your case or isn't asthetically pleasing, then you have to make a choice: Lower temps or keep it the way it is?
    post edited by lehpron - 2010/10/26 20:04:26

    TEC/Peltier definitions, formulas and temperature estimations

     For Intel processors, 0.122 x TDP = Continuous Amps at 12v [source].  
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    magnumsrule
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/26 20:47:03 (permalink)
    Thats really pretty cool! What an inefficient little thing though haha. They seem really cheap though, like $50 for a 250w? I guess the real problem is keeping it cool like you said. 


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    chillernr1
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/27 08:16:23 (permalink)
    you can also use hybrid cooling, tec that cool your liquid, or direct cooling with TEC on your cpu.
     
    i use hybrid cooling solution in my build i'm making now, maybe some interesting info for you there?
     
    http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=647656
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    OV3RCLK4
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    Re:I need cooler temps! Should i add a peltier to my water cooling? 2010/10/27 10:24:04 (permalink)
    I guess I could always add another radiator, but i didnt think it would help much at all. I think that Air Cooled CPU Waterblock that Natemandoo made would be the best thing. He showed an 8c drop compared to a Heatkiller 3.0 (i think)
     
    Ill PM him, maybe he can sell me one. 
     
    As of TEC cooling, I am done, no way im going to be powering a 300+watt TEC, that is just ridiculous. Like you said, its like adding 2 more GTX 280's. I guess TEC direct cooling is a thing of the past these days, since these i7 can run upwards of 250+watts when overclocked. Compared to the old single core 1GHz CPU's, which were only around 50watts when overclocked, I can see how a TEC would be fine on one of those.
    post edited by OV3RCLK4 - 2010/10/28 11:47:14

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