TECH_DaveB
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/08 12:06:51
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Halo_003
EVGATech_DaveB
As someone who has only read about phase and has not used or built them before, why is 300W the cap. Can you make a SS that is 400, 450, 600W or is that impractical for some reason? Too much power draw or too physically large?
Well 300W is the load the phase is tested to cool. A higher load is possible but I think it would start to get very loud and very expensive quickly. A lot of SS units you see are mass produced with a 300W load. Custom ones yes you can get in the 450-500W range but it isn't cheap. At a certain point a single stage is no longer able to keep up which is why SS usually only cools to -40 to -50C on idle. They usually are tested to 300W load at -25C or so.
You can get a dual stage to cool 500W load at -75C, which would idle around -100 to -120C, but at that point you're talking massive power draw, extremely loud and power hungry, not to mention hella expensive. I'm not sure of if there's really a xxxW load limit that really can't be passed, just that usually units are built tested with a 300W load.
Thanks for the info, it is appreciated. This is one area I really don't have a lot of experience in and I always want to learn more, hoping sometime I will be able to get into this as well, Hallowen style, as crazy as you can get with 24/7 stability. When I start that I will be here bugging people about it, might try it with a delidded Devils Canyon or a X79 depending on how things go. Still my favorite thread here.... like drag racing for computers!
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/10 07:42:00
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Question, before I attempt anything. Would adding in a cooper shim, 1.2mm thick, and using CLP for the IHS to Copper bond possibly provide more stable temperatures? I am not sure if this temperature is actually low enough to to warrant the same as LN2, where the more copper the more stable the overall temps.
I also ran into an issue yesterday to where the system would start to boot, and then hang/restart/ and not post. The phase change had built up condensation and the condensation had an effect on the socket area, so I pull the cooler off and put some shop towels around the edge. The foam that I had used between the eraser and the cooler is thin and obviously isn't keep fluids out. Should I pull everything apart, let it dry, and then use fingernail polish on everything to protect it from happening again? I have no issue painting the entire board by any means.
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/10 15:06:20
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Scarlet-Tech
Question, before I attempt anything. Would adding in a cooper shim, 1.2mm thick, and using CLP for the IHS to Copper bond possibly provide more stable temperatures? I am not sure if this temperature is actually low enough to to warrant the same as LN2, where the more copper the more stable the overall temps.
I also ran into an issue yesterday to where the system would start to boot, and then hang/restart/ and not post. The phase change had built up condensation and the condensation had an effect on the socket area, so I pull the cooler off and put some shop towels around the edge. The foam that I had used between the eraser and the cooler is thin and obviously isn't keep fluids out. Should I pull everything apart, let it dry, and then use fingernail polish on everything to protect it from happening again? I have no issue painting the entire board by any means.
Now I Know everyone won't agree with me on this subject, But Just as a personal suggestion........ Those condensation problems are Why I went back to using Petroleum Jelly Exclusively to condensate proof not only In/Around my CPU/Socket, But also the MB area around the Socket (and on the Back of the MB) before adding any layers of foam on my current ASUS X99 RVE Motherboard. When I tried for the First (and Last) time to use Kneadable Eraser around the CPU Socket on my previous ASUS X79 RIV Motherboard using both Phase Change and DICE cooling, I had the same condensation/operational problems that you are describing, On top of the fact Both the INTEL CPU and the ASUS MB FAILED because of components shorting out (You may find Info about this in previous posts if you care to do some searching). Luckily, Both INTEL and ASUS replaced them under Warranty and ever since that Bad Experience I have gone back to using Only Petroleum Jelly EVERYWHERE for my sub-zero builds. Don't get me wrong......Lots of people use Kneadable Eraser with No Problems, But for whatever reason it Just Doesn't do the job for me and I personally find it a Pain to use.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/10 15:10:03
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I will do my best to make the move over to PJ around the socket and on the back when I tear everything down for maintenance the next time I do so. I will order everything I need ahead of time.
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/10 16:04:05
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/10 17:54:09
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Oh, that looks good! I will definitely make use of these when I tear it apart here soon.
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TECH_DaveB
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/11 13:30:46
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WOW, I remember when you posted those forever ago, that was the old 2x295 build, I remember following this thread in 09. It was when I got back into overclocking again after a LONG time out of the game.
I always was concerned about that much PJ in the socket could cause contact issues with the pins, but I guess not.
If you toast a board with that much prep on it, what do you do to get the 5 pounds of PJ back out of it?
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/11 14:50:14
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EVGATech_DaveB
WOW, I remember when you posted those forever ago, that was the old 2x295 build, I remember following this thread in 09. It was when I got back into overclocking again after a LONG time out of the game.
I always was concerned about that much PJ in the socket could cause contact issues with the pins, but I guess not.
If you toast a board with that much prep on it, what do you do to get the 5 pounds of PJ back out of it?
The Reason I use a Lot of Petroleum Jelly in the CPU Socket is because then you must use a hair dryer with just enough heat on a low/medium fan speed setting to cause the Petroleum Jelly in the Socket to "Flow" from in and around the CPU Socket onto the motherboard area over the tan masking tape (as shown in the pics). After completing that and while the Jelly is still very warm, You install the already greased CPU (on the Bottom contact area), Lock it into place and immediately use the hair dryer again on the top of the CPU IHS for a few minutes until it gets Heated up Hot enough to ensure the bottom of the CPU Contacts and the Socket "Fingers" make good physical electrical contact and there is no air gaps left. For removal, use a wooden popsicle stick to remove the majority of the PJ and then you can pull the tan tape/PJ off the MB (as shown in the pics) which leaves only the CPU Socket remaining filled/coated. Go to Home Depot and purchase a few aerosol cans of electrical contact cleaner to blow/rinse the remaining PJ out of the CPU Socket, But FIRST With the MB upside down, Take the hair dryer again and heat up the PJ until it becomes "Fluid" again, The use the contact cleaner to flush out the Socket. On the Back of the MB, Since there are no real delicate areas, You just heat the area with the hair dryer again and use the wooden popsicle stick to remove most of the PJ there followed by again using the aerosol contact cleaner to remove any remaining residue. It may sound like a mess, But I have been able to use this method on various Brands of MB's that either needed cleaned in preparation for Re-Sale or sometimes returned for RMA's/Warranties with NO DAMAGE to the MB Surface Coatings, Components, CPU Socket Fingers or Pins using this method since 2008.
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/11 21:29:43
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If your SS is not insulated well near the head or the first 3 inches of tubing. It will defrost and leak water on your board every time you turn it off. Condensation happens if you let the head get around 0 celsius. You can also make your setup a multi mount connection like mine.   I need to redo my ss head, but that shop towel cuts down allot on leaking water coming from the ice melting. 
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nateman_doo
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/12 18:30:36
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thats at least 5 years old.
you could always mount your board upside down, so the condensation drips away from the board when you turn it off ;)
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nateman_doo
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/12 18:30:36
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thats at least 5 years old.
you could always mount your board upside down, so the condensation drips away from the board when you turn it off ;)
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/13 05:31:02
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nateman_doo
thats at least 5 years old.
Yes it is (2009), But I have had No condensation problems showing up using PJ with any of my builds since then to my present systems even if I turn them on and off frequently or operate for extended periods of time and have Never had to turn any MB's upside down for "drainage" purposes. nateman_doo
you could always mount your board upside down, so the condensation drips away from the board when you turn it off ;)
The Only time I had to do that is the first time I tried Kneadable Eraser instead of PJ on both a Phase Change system and DICE Cooling arrangement. Speaking solely from Only My Experiences, I had even a worse condensation problem after turning the system off when I was using DICE Cooling with Kneadable Eraser which as stated before resulted in the Failure of Both my ASUS X79 MB and my INTEL 4930K. Everyone has their own Condensation Prep Method that works for them, So I'm Not trying to Condemn other methods that are being used that work for those individuals.
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/13 10:36:17
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You would have had to do a bit more with the eraser when using ln2 and dice, since they cause not only the eraser to build up on condensation but also part of the board itself. You would need to insulate the memory contacts top and bottom. And either foam or some type of towel with shop towel underneath. Sitting in a case is pretty much asking for disaster. Unless you prep almost the whole bottom of the board. (LN2/Dice) (I know because I tried it and it failed. LOL. Lucky i did not run power to my board. SS was fine, but the water chiller was more of the condensation problem. And LN2 caused the bottom of the case to get condesation)
Scarlet-tech. PJ is technically the best all around solution, but it is pretty messy if you try to do your whole board with it. As for it being in the socket? As Hallowen suggested, put it in the socket to protect your cpu. For me that is a mandatory thing. It has saved me more than not. If you use eraser, then you will need a thin layer of shop towel covering the eraser. Just like you would do the same thing using LN2.
If you use just the pj and you have your board sitting sideways...the condensation will just running across the PJ and right on to other unprotected areas of the board. So keep and eye on that.
These are only suggestions and not a what you have to do scenario.
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 07:14:22
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I must be getting Lazier (and Older, LOL), Fired it up after weeks of not operating and it still managed to Bench pretty good using my Phase Change on Both the CPU and GPU Cooling with No obvious condensation problems. I have come to the conclusion it has Just become too easy for me to flip a few switches and proceed to run Benches without hardly even looking at any System temps or Condensation issues while I am also busy on my other Computers surfing websites and playing games or have to leave the room for whatever reason. I could never completely ignore temps or not have to constantly adjust them during Bench runs if I was using LN2/DICE cooling. That does boil down to why I haven't always had the Highest Scores, But Then again I always had satisfying results obtained with minimal effort using my cooling methods. 
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 08:52:28
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Interesting... I did this on air & 70F water.  And I flip one switch. The power switch. I guess it boils down to really, what you know and can get away with. And I have to say. I'm far lazier than you at this. LOL. I don't even use water blocks on the gpus and really don't even bring out my SS any more. But none the less, im still satisfied at being in the top 30 in the USA for being a major half stepper. Q56 hasn't benched in over a year and is still above me. But to each his or her own.
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 09:36:33
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johnksss
Interesting...
I did this on air & 70F water.
And I flip one switch. The power switch. I guess it boils down to really, what you know and can get away with. And I have to say. I'm far lazier than you at this. LOL. I don't even use water blocks on the gpus and really don't even bring out my SS any more.
But none the less, im still satisfied at being in the top 30 in the USA for being a major half stepper. Q56 hasn't benched in over a year and is still above me.
But to each his or her own.
True, I guess we're all not as active as we used to be anymore. I've even quit using any SLI setups and have been limiting myself to one graphics card, mainly because I'm tired of not only paying the higher prices of the new cards, But also in the scarcity and limits retailers have placed on how many you can purchase at one time. Even EVGA limits you to 1 card per household, IF they ever have them in stock to purchase.
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 09:47:00
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Although...How much you want for your cascade though? LOL
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 10:29:05
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johnksss
Although...How much you want for your cascade though? LOL
Well John, Even though I haven't used it in years and it does needs some repair work/recharged, For sentimental reasons I don't think I would consider ever parting with it. It's kind of like an old antique that reminds me of my Overclocking Days Gone By. 
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 10:43:31
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Now that..... I can totally understand!
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 15:34:47
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johnksss
Now that..... I can totally understand!
Should I take that as a compliment or did you mean something else?
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 15:45:04
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Compliment. I was happy clicking so it came out bold and big. lol
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TECH_DaveB
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 16:11:20
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i got a couple old parts like that too. Old, unused now, but were some things form the good ol days of OC.....
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johnksss
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 16:15:30
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Well here is something from the good ole new days...  
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/15 16:31:51
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johnksss
Well here is something from the good ole new days...
Nice!, That's an Extremely Fast 512GB M.2 Drive, But then again at the Retail Selling Price of around $500, It Should be.
post edited by hallowen - 2015/05/15 16:37:06
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/17 18:54:33
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You Know, I was wondering Why I couldn't get my Bench Scores higher until I remembered I was still on the Stock Vbios! All I have done so far is flash a modded Vbios from Overclock.net and now with only Overclocking the Memory to the same settings I had on the previous run and not trying (as of yet) to use additional GPU OC or Power Target/GPU Temp Target change, I improved my old score easily! LOL God, That was a Stupid mistake, But I guess there may be Hope for me yet, If I can just remember What the Heck I am supposed to modify in the first place. (Old Age Strikes Again....)  
post edited by hallowen - 2015/05/18 05:23:34
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/18 13:38:28
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Works Much Better...... 
ASUS: Rampage VI Extreme | i9-7940X | 2X RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin SLI | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz Memory - SAGER: NP9870-G | i7-6700K | GTX 980M 8GB | 64GB DDR4 | 950 PRO M.2 512GB | 17.3 QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Prema bios - EVOC Premamod: P870TM1 | i9-9900K-LM | RTX 2080N 8GB | Modded Vapor Chamber | 32GB 3000MHz Ripjaws | 960 EVO M.2 1TB | 17.3 3K QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Intel 8265 -
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/18 13:54:09
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Almost got my sanity back, So far after flashing to the modded Vbios Managed to go from #33 to #13 in the HOF. 
ASUS: Rampage VI Extreme | i9-7940X | 2X RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin SLI | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz Memory - SAGER: NP9870-G | i7-6700K | GTX 980M 8GB | 64GB DDR4 | 950 PRO M.2 512GB | 17.3 QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Prema bios - EVOC Premamod: P870TM1 | i9-9900K-LM | RTX 2080N 8GB | Modded Vapor Chamber | 32GB 3000MHz Ripjaws | 960 EVO M.2 1TB | 17.3 3K QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Intel 8265 -
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/19 08:21:21
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ASUS: Rampage VI Extreme | i9-7940X | 2X RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin SLI | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz Memory - SAGER: NP9870-G | i7-6700K | GTX 980M 8GB | 64GB DDR4 | 950 PRO M.2 512GB | 17.3 QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Prema bios - EVOC Premamod: P870TM1 | i9-9900K-LM | RTX 2080N 8GB | Modded Vapor Chamber | 32GB 3000MHz Ripjaws | 960 EVO M.2 1TB | 17.3 3K QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Intel 8265 -
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awalleyeguy
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/19 16:39:31
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hallowen
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Re:Get It Colder......2
2015/05/19 17:08:56
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awalleyeguy
Thanks Man, appreciate the thumbs up.  I was almost at the point of wondering if anyone out there still had any interest left in Overclocking/Benching Information. Every year there seems to be less and less forum members that are still "into" this area of finding System limits, But it has come to the point where it really doesn't surprise me anymore.
ASUS: Rampage VI Extreme | i9-7940X | 2X RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin SLI | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz Memory - SAGER: NP9870-G | i7-6700K | GTX 980M 8GB | 64GB DDR4 | 950 PRO M.2 512GB | 17.3 QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Prema bios - EVOC Premamod: P870TM1 | i9-9900K-LM | RTX 2080N 8GB | Modded Vapor Chamber | 32GB 3000MHz Ripjaws | 960 EVO M.2 1TB | 17.3 3K QHD 120Hz Matte G-Sync | Intel 8265 -
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