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Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030

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2016/10/10 21:31:06 (permalink)
What do you guys think about this? Do you feel America would be in the right direction to do such a move? Do you think it's time to put the combustible engine aside and bring out something new? I think we should, but the battery power cars are not going to cut it.


Germany invented the gasoline engine and diesel engine. Now, Germany’s Bundesrat wants the internal combustion engine banned starting in 2030. The resolution by one of Germany’s two legislative bodies (analogous to the US Senate or British House of Lords) isn’t binding, but it had bipartisan support. It suggests the days of the internal combustion engine car are finite.
Other code phrases in the resolution, once deciphered, suggest Germany wants to roll back tax credits favoring diesel engine cars, and push for further incentives to ramp up the sales of electric vehicles.
Why a non-binding resolution is still a cannon shot
Cars and trucks represent low-hanging fruit for those who want to roll back internal combustion engine pollution. Trains, planes, and ships aren’t going to run on batteries anytime soon. Germany wants to reduce CO2 emissions by as much as 95% by 2050, according to Der Spiegel, which first reported the story. This in a country that reveres the automobile and develops many of the world’s highest-technology cars, from Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. It may be that electrification may get more engineering resources than even autonomous driving.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engine-cars-by-2030

post edited by stalinx20 - 2016/10/10 21:32:34

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    Cool GTX
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 21:55:13 (permalink)
    The US is exponentially larger than Germany.  I get the whole fossil fuel angle, but building batteries and disposing of them along with how the electricity is produced; would have to also be part of the true pollution calculations.
     
    I remember reading (a few years back) that USA + western Europe = less pollution than either China or India.
     
    If my memory is correct about that article  -- hard to tell as time goes on. 
     
    It would be much more efficient to implement existing technologies around the world to reduce total pollution emissions --- yes?

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 21:59:11 (permalink)
    I love the internal combustion engine. However, it is time to move on. Electric cars can be pretty awesome for most people. I recently drove a Chevy Volt for 2 weeks. I have to admit it was pretty sweet.

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 22:01:15 (permalink)
     
    Hopefully we will be in flying cars by then.          

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 22:11:00 (permalink)
    I've read that you can design an engine using hydrogen as the power source which would be a nice alternative. Can't remember the web link to share though, it was a while back.
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    loveha
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 22:19:33 (permalink)
    ARIOS-X1
    I've read that you can design an engine using hydrogen as the power source which would be a nice alternative. Can't remember the web link to share though, it was a while back.


    BMW did it a long time ago, think it was BMW. Either way the cost was outrageous at the time. Hydro and battery operated cars will be the future. However, not by 2030 lol.
    In the mean time, I will take my Dodge Challenger R/T with 5.7L Hemi over any future car.
    post edited by loveha - 2016/10/10 22:21:24

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 22:24:43 (permalink)
    True, hydrogen fuel cells for producing electricity and pressure tanks for internal combustion engines do exist -->
     
    price and safety concerns though it burns clean
     

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    Nereus
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 23:04:27 (permalink)
     
    Get a bicycle or use your feet...
     

     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by Nereus - 2016/10/10 23:06:12


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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 23:06:40 (permalink)
    Eventually such a thing will be needed but I feel the timeframe is too short. Maybe the year 2035 or 2040 would be better. 

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 23:16:25 (permalink)
     
    By 2040, AI will be surpassing human intelligence and rapidly increasing, and will likely come up with a solution for many problems (and hopefully it doesn't involve removing all the humans)..
     


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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/10 23:27:02 (permalink)
    Nereus
     
    By 2040, AI will be surpassing human intelligence and rapidly increasing, and will likely come up with a solution for many problems (and hopefully it doesn't involve removing all the humans)..
     





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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 08:32:33 (permalink)
    Why don't you ever hear about how much pollution that is coming from Jets? I know cars pollute a lot but jets burn thousands of gallons of fuel on every flight.

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 08:45:33 (permalink)
    Shockjockey
    Why don't you ever hear about how much pollution that is coming from Jets [turbofan aircraft]? I know cars pollute a lot but jets burn thousands of gallons of fuel on every flight.


    Almost nobody except military aircraft use jet engines any more; I think you mean turbofan engines or airlines.  Because turbofan engines are very efficient already, there aren't any good alternatives, and many people rely on airlines to keep their business moving and growing.  Over 12 million people travel by Airline in the USA per week.  And billions of pounds of cargo are shipped via airlines in the USA per week.  If people didn't need their packages any sooner than a week later and people didn't need to meet face-to-face, then maybe we wouldn't need airlines.
     
    I know that it seems like large turbofan aircraft burn a lot of fuel, but actually, in relation to the number of people and pound of cargo per distance traveled, they are much more efficient than many other options.  Would you rather all those people got in their car and drove across the country and polluted separately, or would you rather they carpool in an airline?  And, remember, electric vehicles pollute as well.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2016/10/11 08:57:57

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 09:23:12 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    Shockjockey
    Why don't you ever hear about how much pollution that is coming from Jets [turbofan aircraft]? I know cars pollute a lot but jets burn thousands of gallons of fuel on every flight.


    Almost nobody except military aircraft use jet engines any more; I think you mean turbofan engines or airlines.  Because turbofan engines are very efficient already, there aren't any good alternatives, and many people rely on airlines to keep their business moving and growing.  Over 12 million people travel by Airline in the USA per week.  And billions of pounds of cargo are shipped via airlines in the USA per week.  If people didn't need their packages any sooner than a week later and people didn't need to meet face-to-face, then maybe we wouldn't need airlines.
     
    I know that it seems like large turbofan aircraft burn a lot of fuel, but actually, in relation to the number of people and pound of cargo per distance traveled, they are much more efficient than many other options.  Would you rather all those people got in their car and drove across the country and polluted separately, or would you rather they carpool in an airline?  And, remember, electric vehicles pollute as well.


    I would rather close all the airlines down if it would help my grandchildren live on a clean planet. All forms of burning oil have to go if this planet is to survive.

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 09:38:06 (permalink)
    Shockjockey
    ty_ger07
    Shockjockey
    Why don't you ever hear about how much pollution that is coming from Jets [turbofan aircraft]? I know cars pollute a lot but jets burn thousands of gallons of fuel on every flight.


    Almost nobody except military aircraft use jet engines any more; I think you mean turbofan engines or airlines.  Because turbofan engines are very efficient already, there aren't any good alternatives, and many people rely on airlines to keep their business moving and growing.  Over 12 million people travel by Airline in the USA per week.  And billions of pounds of cargo are shipped via airlines in the USA per week.  If people didn't need their packages any sooner than a week later and people didn't need to meet face-to-face, then maybe we wouldn't need airlines.
     
    I know that it seems like large turbofan aircraft burn a lot of fuel, but actually, in relation to the number of people and pound of cargo per distance traveled, they are much more efficient than many other options.  Would you rather all those people got in their car and drove across the country and polluted separately, or would you rather they carpool in an airline?  And, remember, electric vehicles pollute as well.


    I would rather close all the airlines down if it would help my grandchildren live on a clean planet. All forms of burning oil have to go if this planet is to survive.


    Maybe I wasn't clear.
     
    1) If you shut down the airlines: you don't shut down the airlines, you shut down the economy.  There are many businesses which help keep this country running which need parts or supplies urgently delivered unexpectedly.  If you cut off air transportation, each business which had an unexpected failure would have to shut down for a week while waiting for parts, supplies, or systems experts to arrive to the location.  Businesses run off other businesses.  If one business shuts down for a week, they would stop supplying their product to another business which would then also need to shut down.  It is no exaggeration to say that there could easily be hundreds of business closed down during any given week if it weren't for air transportation.  That is only one example of how it would negatively affect our economy.  What sort of burden would that place on our economy just on its own?  How much trust, investment, profit, and wealth is lost by having hundreds of thousands of employees unemployed during any given week?  Maybe you work a simple job where you just deal with simple human issues and don't see the underlying infrastructure which keeps everything running. 
     
    2) Shutting down the airlines wouldn't create a clean planet.  It would create hardly any difference.  Airlines are extremely efficient compared to many other forms of transportation.  Have you considered where the electrical energy for an electric car comes from, how that energy travels from the power plant to your house, how much is lost before it reaches the car or gets lost while being converted into chemical energy stored in the battery, how much energy is lost when the chemical energy stored in the battery gets converted back into electrical energy, and how much energy is lost in the electric motor, drive system, and tires?  The electric car is very inefficient if you look at the whole system it depends on and has a very long list of steps where energy is converted and lost.
     
    As I said already, the airline is very efficient when you consider its mass scale in relation to how many people and pounds of cargo it moves and the airline has MUCH fewer energy loss vectors between the source of power (fuel) and the force of movement (thrust).  I dare you to find a more cost-effective and efficient system for taking people and goods large distances in mass at a speed necessary to keep important economy alive.  If a suitable replacement existed, there would already be someone making a ton of money off of it.  The only replacements which exist are slower and cheaper and each of them are also producers of pollution.
     
    Lastly, as I said, electric vehicles are not clean.  Electric vehicles get their energy source predominantly from fossil fuels in the USA and store that energy in very caustic and chemically dangerous batteries which need to be created, replaced, and discarded which contributes to pollution of the environment.  It is hardly a better alternative.  Also, the electric car is physically made from fossil fuels (plastics/polymers).  If you want your grandchildren to live on a clean planet, you should stop having children and grandchildren.  Contributing to a decreased population is the most effective contribution you can make.  This electric car and airlines thing is just a giant smokescreen.
     
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2016/10/11 14:17:29

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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 10:21:46 (permalink)
    This is all to do with redistribution of wealth from petroleum companies to "green" energy companies. This has nothing to do with what is good for the world. It's who gets that HUGE chunk of energy consumables money. The population is truly naive and are being played for fools. Follow the special interest cash and who is really behind the scenes pushing legislation and regulation. The misdirection is shameful.
    post edited by Brad_Hawthorne - 2016/10/11 10:26:20
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 14:38:14 (permalink)
    Moonbats run Germany. I almost feel sorry for Germany citizens.
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 17:35:34 (permalink)
    Easily do-able goal for consumer vehicles, trucking and delivery will be harder to convert but is still attainable. Good for Germany. Hope the rest of the world follows suit.
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 18:12:05 (permalink)
    Nereus
     
    Get a bicycle or use your feet...
     

     
     
     
     
     


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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 18:22:58 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    Shockjockey
    ty_ger07
    Shockjockey
    Why don't you ever hear about how much pollution that is coming from Jets [turbofan aircraft]? I know cars pollute a lot but jets burn thousands of gallons of fuel on every flight.


    Almost nobody except military aircraft use jet engines any more; I think you mean turbofan engines or airlines.  Because turbofan engines are very efficient already, there aren't any good alternatives, and many people rely on airlines to keep their business moving and growing.  Over 12 million people travel by Airline in the USA per week.  And billions of pounds of cargo are shipped via airlines in the USA per week.  If people didn't need their packages any sooner than a week later and people didn't need to meet face-to-face, then maybe we wouldn't need airlines.
     
    I know that it seems like large turbofan aircraft burn a lot of fuel, but actually, in relation to the number of people and pound of cargo per distance traveled, they are much more efficient than many other options.  Would you rather all those people got in their car and drove across the country and polluted separately, or would you rather they carpool in an airline?  And, remember, electric vehicles pollute as well.


    I would rather close all the airlines down if it would help my grandchildren live on a clean planet. All forms of burning oil have to go if this planet is to survive.


    Maybe I wasn't clear.
     
    1) If you shut down the airlines: you don't shut down the airlines, you shut down the economy.  There are many businesses which help keep this country running which need parts or supplies urgently delivered unexpectedly.  If you cut off air transportation, each business which had an unexpected failure would have to shut down for a week while waiting for parts, supplies, or systems experts to arrive to the location.  Businesses run off other businesses.  If one business shuts down for a week, they would stop supplying their product to another business which would then also need to shut down.  It is no exaggeration to say that there could easily be hundreds of business closed down during any given week if it weren't for air transportation.  That is only one example of how it would negatively affect our economy.  What sort of burden would that place on our economy just on its own?  How much trust, investment, profit, and wealth is lost by having hundreds of thousands of employees unemployed during any given week?  Maybe you work a simple job where you just deal with simple human issues and don't see the underlying infrastructure which keeps everything running. 
     
    2) Shutting down the airlines wouldn't create a clean planet.  It would create hardly any difference.  Airlines are extremely efficient compared to many other forms of transportation.  Have you considered where the electrical energy for an electric car comes from, how that energy travels from the power plant to your house, how much is lost before it reaches the car or gets lost while being converted into chemical energy stored in the battery, how much energy is lost when the chemical energy stored in the battery gets converted back into electrical energy, and how much energy is lost in the electric motor, drive system, and tires?  The electric car is very inefficient if you look at the whole system it depends on and has a very long list of steps where energy is converted and lost.
     
    As I said already, the airline is very efficient when you consider its mass scale in relation to how many people and pounds of cargo it moves and the airline has MUCH fewer energy loss vectors between the source of power (fuel) and the force of movement (thrust).  I dare you to find a more cost-effective and efficient system for taking people and goods large distances in mass at a speed necessary to keep important economy alive.  If a suitable replacement existed, there would already be someone making a ton of money off of it.  The only replacements which exist are slower and cheaper and each of them are also producers of pollution.
     
    Lastly, as I said, electric vehicles are not clean.  Electric vehicles get their energy source predominantly from fossil fuels in the USA and store that energy in very caustic and chemically dangerous batteries which need to be created, replaced, and discarded which contributes to pollution of the environment.  It is hardly a better alternative.  Also, the electric car is physically made from fossil fuels (plastics/polymers).  If you want your grandchildren to live on a clean planet, you should stop having children and grandchildren.  Contributing to a decreased population is the most effective contribution you can make.  This electric car and airlines thing is just a giant smokescreen.
     


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    #20
    stalinx20
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/11 18:34:00 (permalink)
    Shockjockey
    I would rather close all the airlines down if it would help my grandchildren live on a clean planet. All forms of burning oil have to go if this planet is to survive.

    Like someone said earlier, i think we should be looking at India and China first before we look at "shutting the airlines down". That's the problem, though, we can't just waltz into China and India, and tell them that they have to reduce their CO2 emissions "or else". I have high hopes that this works out for Germany, but my opinion, this battery technology is not going to work on its own. Batteries alone are still a chemical waste, and you still have to dispose of them. If they have all consumer cars run on batteries, that's a lot of batteries. And the idea to "cash in on to have 'better cars' and the 'redistribution of wealth", they would have attempted to make hydrogen more stable to be used in cars. I think that would have a far better outcome. At the same time, it would cost alot of money, but we all know they would put that on the consumer, so what's it matter? My 2 cents again, Battery powered cars alone? Terrible idea. 
    post edited by stalinx20 - 2016/10/11 18:35:51

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    candle_86
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 04:18:46 (permalink)
    They may not have my gasoline powered cars, they can find another way, but no one can make an electric car that can terrify the person next to your car by simply tapping down the accelerator. They can't replace the smell of Oil and Gasoline under the hood, and they most certainly can't get the right vibrations into the steering wheel. 
     
    A car is more than just a mode of transportation, its a thing of beauty, a relationship between Man and Machine. By perverting it into an eletric car with not noise, no feeling, and no personality you take away that bond and make it less than it was.
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 08:37:25 (permalink)
    I will cry if combustion engines are banned in my lifetime. God bless the sweet roar of a V8!
    #23
    Brad_Hawthorne
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 09:46:07 (permalink)
    We should not be punished for another's transgressions. Look to China and India to solve your problem.
    #24
    rjohnson11
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 12:43:01 (permalink)
    I think the German's governments thoughts here are to ban the internal combustion engine and force use of electric engines and/or biological fuels. This would actually force automotive manufacturers in Germany to have a head start on many other countries.

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    #25
    Brad_Hawthorne
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 16:10:56 (permalink)
    rjohnson11
    I think the German's governments thoughts here are to ban the internal combustion engine and force use of electric engines and/or biological fuels. This would actually force automotive manufacturers in Germany to have a head start on many other countries.


    A head start towards what? Until there is a more economical vehicle fuel ecosystem, fossil fuels will drive the economy. You force more expensive vehicle fuels and the cost to transport to market will make everything you buy more expensive. 
     
    I don't think people realize just how heavily dependant transportation systems are on fossil fuels -- rail, trucks, barges, aircraft and seagoing freighters. Most of that isn't going electric anytime soon. Some rail systems are electric, but that's impossible to implement in someplace like the US where we're currently having problems even upgrading the switching fail-safe systems on existing routes. Is the government going to pay these companies to do these drastic and expensive changes?
    post edited by Brad_Hawthorne - 2016/10/13 16:44:06
    #26
    stalinx20
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/13 16:13:49 (permalink)
    Brad_Hawthorne
    rjohnson11
    I think the German's governments thoughts here are to ban the internal combustion engine and force use of electric engines and/or biological fuels. This would actually force automotive manufacturers in Germany to have a head start on many other countries.


    A head start towards what? Until there is a more economical vehicle fuel ecosystem, fossil fuels will drive the economy. You force more expensive vehicle fuels and the cost to transport to market will make everything you buy more expensive. 


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    #27
    MSim
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/14 21:56:25 (permalink)
    The market should dictate what happens, not the government. If electric vehicles are that much better, it should have no problem overtaking sales of vehicle powered by combustion engines.
     
     
     
     
    #28
    lenfish
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/15 14:49:14 (permalink)
    Here in the UK to improve sales they've come up with the idea of giving electric vehicles priority at traffic lights, junctions and letting them go the wrong way down one way streets in their own special lane. No one has any idea how it will work though!
    Until the price of electric vehicles comes down, the range is increased between charges that that of conventional vehicles and fast charging points are as common as petrol stations I can't see them taking off in a big way. 
    #29
    MSim
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    Re: Germany votes to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2030 2016/10/15 15:34:16 (permalink)
    lenfish
    Here in the UK to improve sales they've come up with the idea of giving electric vehicles priority at traffic lights, junctions and letting them go the wrong way down one way streets in their own special lane. No one has any idea how it will work though!
    Until the price of electric vehicles comes down, the range is increased between charges that that of conventional vehicles and fast charging points are as common as petrol stations I can't see them taking off in a big way. 




    Someone needs to test the UK government for drugs. Letting any kind of vehicle go down a one way street the wrong way, that's just asking for an accident to happen. 
     
    Giving one kind of car priority at traffic lights, is just going to cause traffic jams.
    post edited by MSim - 2016/10/15 16:21:28
    #30
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