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Z97 Classified install frustrations.

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Dukman
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2015/07/05 16:29:07 (permalink)
Finally getting around to my PC overhaul with a new Z97 Classified.  
 
First I have to say and I know that this has been said many times before, the "manuals" that come with the motherboard are a joke.  That has got to be the worst documentation I have ever encountered.   Okay, now that I've got that out of the way.
 
First the good.  
 
  • The motherboard works.  Did a test bench before the install and it booted flawlessly.
  • Good looking hardware.  Fits perfectly in with my current build with no mods needed.
 
Now the annoying.
 
  • Really nice looking aluminum plate that covers the I/O devices doesn't fit if you use the top PCIe slot.  A bit of disappointment, but no big deal.
  • CPU coolers can crowd the DIMM slots.  I am currently using a Corsair H100i cooler.  If I have the cooler "right side" up, the coolant hoses interfere with the first DIMM slot.   Turning the cooler 90 degrees solved this problem.  But now it looks like my Corsair ship is blasting off into space.  :/
  • 90 degree fan headers.  Not such a great idea if limited in space.  
  • This is by far the biggest issue for me (so far).  The location of the USB 3.0 header.  I simply cant get the front panel connector to it.  Its not that it wont reach, it simply cant make that many 90 degree bends.  So unless I plan to take a Dremel to my case, no front panel USB until I get an adapter.
With luck the USB header will be the only major issue.  The other stuff is minor and easily dealt with.  But I just don't get what they were thinking with the location of the USB header.   

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    AKToronto
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/07 07:30:35 (permalink)
    I had a small amount of difficulty with the right angle USB too on my Phanteks Enthoo Luxe case. I was able to get it plugged in, but just had to monitor how I routed my cables there since the USB cables are thick. At one point they even bent the housing up a bit but was able to fix this as I noticed it quickly. Thankfully the build quality of the mobo is great and it would take quite a bit of muscle to snap off the connector.... But its probably worth an extra special warning for builders.. Be extra careful with thick USB cables and right angled connectors! Don't force it into a tight spot.
     
    I can say that the right angled connectors look pretty nice though with a complete build. They really get the cables "out of the way".
     
    Just more a word of warning to handle them with care!
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    JLMS2010
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/07 18:24:21 (permalink)
    Dukman
    Finally getting around to my PC overhaul with a new Z97 Classified.  
     
    First I have to say and I know that this has been said many times before, the "manuals" that come with the motherboard are a joke.  That has got to be the worst documentation I have ever encountered.   Okay, now that I've got that out of the way.
     
    First the good.  
     
    • The motherboard works.  Did a test bench before the install and it booted flawlessly.
    • Good looking hardware.  Fits perfectly in with my current build with no mods needed.
     
    Now the annoying.
     
    • Really nice looking aluminum plate that covers the I/O devices doesn't fit if you use the top PCIe slot.  A bit of disappointment, but no big deal.
    • CPU coolers can crowd the DIMM slots.  I am currently using a Corsair H100i cooler.  If I have the cooler "right side" up, the coolant hoses interfere with the first DIMM slot.   Turning the cooler 90 degrees solved this problem.  But now it looks like my Corsair ship is blasting off into space.  :/
    • 90 degree fan headers.  Not such a great idea if limited in space.  
    • This is by far the biggest issue for me (so far).  The location of the USB 3.0 header.  I simply cant get the front panel connector to it.  Its not that it wont reach, it simply cant make that many 90 degree bends.  So unless I plan to take a Dremel to my case, no front panel USB until I get an adapter.
    With luck the USB header will be the only major issue.  The other stuff is minor and easily dealt with.  But I just don't get what they were thinking with the location of the USB header.   




    I have the same board and haven't had any issues with the I/O cover not fitting.  I have a 980 Classified in there now with a back plate on and it slides in now problems.  I'm a little surprised you can't get the USB 3.0 cable to the header.  It's right next to the front panel connectors and they are both are usually about the same length with the cases I've used.  Sorry to hear you are having some issues.  Which case are you using?  
     
    I agree.  The manual could use some help! Lol.  

    RIG 1: i5-8600K / Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 / EVGA GTX 1070 FTW / 16GB Corsair 3000MHz / 950 Pro 512GB M.2 / 850 Pro 1TB /  Phanteks Pro M Tempered / EVGA 750P2 / SGPC's cables / Dell U3415W Monitor


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    #3
    Dukman
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/07 19:42:45 (permalink)
    Im using a Corsair C70 case.
     
    I have a pair of fans for a push/pull across the drive cages and to move air across the cards.  If the fans weren't there I could get enough bend to the 3.0 cable to plug it into the header.  But with the fans in place and the fact that the cable is sleeved, it just doesn't allow me to get enough angles to get in there safely and not put too much pressure on the header.   If the C70 had just one more cable pass through slot like some of the other cases do , this would be pretty much a non issue.
     
    I'll give the I/O cover another go, but with my first attempt, my top card (780ti with backplate) interfered with it, and I seem to recall it blocked the hole for the screw as well.  But maybe I was too tired at the time and not fully paying attention.  
     
    But my gripes with the manual stands.   

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    JLMS2010
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/07 19:55:56 (permalink)
    Ahh I understand what you mean with the case now. Yeah give the cover another shot and I still agree with your position on the manual!

    RIG 1: i5-8600K / Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 / EVGA GTX 1070 FTW / 16GB Corsair 3000MHz / 950 Pro 512GB M.2 / 850 Pro 1TB /  Phanteks Pro M Tempered / EVGA 750P2 / SGPC's cables / Dell U3415W Monitor


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    Dukman
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/08 08:41:17 (permalink)
    Went at the I/O cover while awake this time. And you are correct JLMS, it fit.  It's a snug fit, but the card slid into place with no trouble.   I probably tried to go at it the really hard way last time (in fact, I know I did).  Card first, then cover.  Don't ask.  I don't know what I was thinking either.
     
    Last obstacle to overcome is the USB header.  I found a 90 degree adapter that would solve the problem nicely.  So Im trying to decide if I want to get that, or just forego using the front panel on my case.   The only time I use the front panel is when I plug in my external BR drive.   I have a 3.0 hub that I use for most other connections, but the BR drive doesn't always like the hub.

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    JLMS2010
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/08 08:43:25 (permalink)
    Nice!  Glad to hear you got it on there.  Honestly, I rarely use front panel i/o & usb ports. Lol

    RIG 1: i5-8600K / Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 / EVGA GTX 1070 FTW / 16GB Corsair 3000MHz / 950 Pro 512GB M.2 / 850 Pro 1TB /  Phanteks Pro M Tempered / EVGA 750P2 / SGPC's cables / Dell U3415W Monitor


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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/08 17:21:09 (permalink)
    Unfortunately, we have gone back and forth whether to use 90 headers or not, and so far, whichever path we choose, it doesn't fit half of the cases out there.
    We do however have this, I used this both on my personal system to get around some parts as well as on a test bench here and it has worked well and is quite malleable.
     
    http://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=W002-00-000028
     
    Also for the manuals,we are always trying to make the next manual or the next BIOS guide better than the previous.  Here are the links to the 3 main pieces of documentation for your board:
    http://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/152-HR-E979-Part1.pdf
    http://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/Z97_Motherboards_Part2.pdf
    http://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/BIOS/152-HR-E979_BIOS_Guide.pdf
     
    Any bit of constructive criticism you can offer would be handy.  What specifically are they missing and what would you like to see more detail on?  Perhaps some parts are longer winded than they need to be.  Everyone is different and we try to cater to the masses I believe nothing is perfect and anything can always be improved.
     
    Hope the links help, and anything you would like to see added to the manuals, please provide some feedback and details.
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    JLMS2010
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/08 17:26:16 (permalink)
    I personally like the 90 degree headers. :)

    RIG 1: i5-8600K / Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 / EVGA GTX 1070 FTW / 16GB Corsair 3000MHz / 950 Pro 512GB M.2 / 850 Pro 1TB /  Phanteks Pro M Tempered / EVGA 750P2 / SGPC's cables / Dell U3415W Monitor


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    Dukman
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/08 22:17:57 (permalink)
    Thank you Dave,  I didn't know EVGA had that extension/adapter.     I'm looking at one that's exactly like that, only it would come multi hued. 
     
    I wonder why Google didn't pull that one up when I searched? 
     
    It wasn't the angle of the USB header that threw a monkey wrench at me, it was the placement.  And that's not really the fault of the layout, but the set up of my case.  Like I said, if my case had that third lower pass through, it wouldn't be an issue. Or if I ditched the fans or the second HDD cage.   And as you mentioned, there are too many variables with all the different case designs out there.  So the 90 degree adapter is a viable solution to the problem.  And even if the board had a 90 degree header on it, I would still have the same problem.  Due to my case, I would still probably have to get the adapter due to the angles.   And I'm okay with that.
     
    The manuals are really scarce on information for the individual parts and what they are used for or what their functions are. Even in the BIOS manual its still fairly general with information and is scarce on specifics.   Assuming that you had someone purchase this board who was new to overclocking and wanted a board that they could "grow" into, the current manuals as they stand, wouldn't be of much help to that individual.
     
    I personally like a manual that gives me a break down and explanation of what each and every header and setting is used for.
     
    Again, assuming that you have someone just learning, they don't get much explanation of what, for example, the voltage header is for and how to use it.   Another example; In the first motherboard manual, we have a good listing of what and where the individual components and connections are, but there's nothing descriptive about them.  Like the header for the EVGA Gauge.  It tells me it's there on the board, but nothing about what the EVGA Gauge is, or why I would want to use it or what I would use it for.
     
    I'll give several examples of information I needed or would be nice to have.
     
    • The two 8 pin EPS headers and the 6 pin PCIe header on the board.  There's no mention in the manuals when and why I should use the extra connections.   I would say its fairly common knowledge that we need to use the one 8 pin to help power the CPU, but when or why should I use the other one?  And why should I plug something into the 6 pin?  I personally know why, but again, someone new might not.
    • BIOS Switch.  The first manual tells us its on the board.  But after that there is nothing about it in either manual.  When should I use it?  Why should I use it?  I know why, as do most advanced users.  But a beginner might not.
    • Removable BIOS chip.  Even this is new to me, as to the best of my knowledge, none of my other boards have had one.  So what do I do with it?  Yes, I can find out on the forum or by searching on the internet, but it would be nice to have that information ready on hand with the manual. 
    • Individual LEDS.  There is some information about the status indicators. Green, yellow and blue, the Debug LED and the power buttons.  But what about the white one near the BIOS switch, or the red ones that do a Cylon impression below the BIOS switch or the other red one in that area.  (while I'm at it, I haven't seen a green, yellow or blue LED on the board that the manual says I have).
     
    My last EVGA motherboard was a 780i FTW, (awesome board by the way, loved that motherboard, which is still in use in a system I built for friend who needed a computer), but it also came with an informative manual.  
     
    http://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/132-YW-E178.pdf 
     
    I know it might be a bit more time intensive to write up a more detailed manual, but it's so nice to have a comprehensive breakdown of what each piece and BIOS setting does.
     
    The forums are pretty good about giving information and helping out, but it can be frustrating if you're stuck or confused and have wait several hours or days to find out what a component is, or what a setting does.  Flipping through a comprehensive manual whether it be PDF or printed is nice to be able to do while you're right there building the system.
     
    Don't mean to sound nit picky, but you did ask for my thoughts.  
    post edited by Dukman - 2015/07/08 22:22:21

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    Batpimp
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/10 09:02:35 (permalink)
    I just got this board too. Still trying to figure some things out. It is for sure NOT newbie-friendly for overclocking.
     
    I have had to look up each individual setting and its meaning and use. Kind of strange it doesn't come in the box. I am definitely a noob to over clocking.
     
    For example, I don't know if I should or shouldn't update the bios, Even if I did, I don't know how lol.
    I am at 1.02. Also for some reason when I turn off EIST my CPU multiplier settings WONT apply to all cores and it remains at 4.0ghz (40x) multiplier. Is this correct?
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    AKToronto
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/10 10:07:45 (permalink)
    if you turn off EIST all cores will run at the multiplier speed. You wont need to individualy set turbos etc... That's intentional. Also, yes update your bios already! You have three bioses! no excuses, lol.
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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/10 10:11:35 (permalink)
    @Dukman
    Thanks for the feedback.  I don't think you are being nitpicky and yes I did ask your thoughts.  I don't think anything is ever perfect (no room for improvement) and we have made a lot of strides in manuals in the last 1-1.5years, coming from the initial X79, P67/Z68 boards, but I can definitely see where you are going with it.  I was hoping for a well stated complaint like this as the statements of "manual is teh suck" and so on do absolutely nothing for fixing the problem.
    Also I asked, as I am involved in the manual making process so well stated input is ALWAYS wanted.  I had been pushing for more depth in components, such as what exact 3rd party USB controller was added, or which exact audio chip was used, as our manuals previously were VERY sparse in those areas, as well as WHERE everything is.
    Generally, we have aimed towards the enthusiast market and our manuals reflect that, granted I have tried to make them more approachable for the intermediate and the novice, but I apparently need more work there.  I have worked on some other manuals that are unreleased at this point and cannot comment on however I have already addressed some of the your suggestions already.  Not all of them though, but they are solid ideas, it would make the manual(s) more approachable for novices and layman, and frankly everyone starts there at some point.
    Good input on this and I will definitely apply it going forward.
     
    @Batimp
    I would recommend going to the current BIOS first off, there are a LOT of improvements to memory support, CPU microcode and lots of other things.
    From there EIST, Turbo and Sleep states should be left on.  If you are at BIOS 1.02 that might have been early enough to have not had full support for 4790-k overclocking as that processor was not  launched with a bulk of the Haswell CPU's, it came out a good bit later.
    i would update the BIOS first, after everything boots and is good, remember if you changed anything like SATA mode or CSM settings you will need to change those back to your initial configuration before you return to windows.  Once you have done with that, reboot and go into BIOS and you can start clocking.  I would make sure that RAM is set correctly to manufacturer spec, speed isn't as important up front but mainly voltage and latency, if that is off and you are clocking the CPU (which has the memory controller in it) you will get stability issues, and when new to overclocking the last thing you want it to be chasing your tail on a CPU OC from a basic memory setting being incorrect.
     
    As for a direct OC guide, that is a touchy subject here, as we are kinda limited on what we can and can't advise as there are possible liability concerns.  Catastrophic failures are possible, however unlikely and if we advice something and you void the warranty on your CPU then blow it up, or some other part that can become an issue.  We try to supply enough info in the BIOS guide to make informed decisions for clocking your CPU/RAM.
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    Batpimp
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/10 10:25:08 (permalink)
    thanks for responses. instead of hijacking this thread I will post my questions in my thread.

    sorry for adding problems here dukman
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    Dukman
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/10 19:38:45 (permalink)
    @EVGA Dave.  
    Thank you.  I consider myself an enthusiastic intermediate.   I prefer motherboards with features and options and ones that allow me to learn and grow as I adapt to the motherboard.  I'm not huge into overclocking, but like to have a board that will allow me to tinker a bit with options.
     
     
    @Batpimp
    No problems added.  If this thread helped you out, then so much the better!
     
    And as a bonus, I got the front panel USB plugged in to the header this morning.  Changed the routing on a few things an went at it from the bottom up.  After a couple of tight bends, I was able to get it plugged in.  
    post edited by Dukman - 2015/07/10 20:04:59

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    Dukman
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/14 07:40:22 (permalink)
    Just an update.  Build complete and up and running, in fact I'm using it to browse these forums.  Still need to update the BIOS a hook up some temperature probes for my little fan experiment. 
     
    And I need to get some good pictures taken so I can post up in Rigs so people can point and laugh.  (It's ugly on purpose).

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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/14 11:14:01 (permalink)
    Glad to hear you are up and running, and post some pics, ugly on purpose rigs are always funny!
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    neploxo
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/20 09:47:34 (permalink)
    Hi Dave,
     
    I just purchased and installed the Z97FTW last week, and here are my notes on the guides.
    1) 2 guides was weird. I kept having to change between them to find info I needed.
    2) The print was TINY. I had to use a magnifying glass for the diagram to make out the numbers. Also the green background for the numbers printed to a dark gray making them even tougher to read.
    3) SATA port labelling appears non-existent. Had to figure out which port was 0-5 by trial and error
    4) Parts of the guide state 'depending which board in the series you have', but page 10 of guidebook 2 states 'This board has a single PCI-E 16x slot' which contradicts page 9 of book 1 that lists two x16 slots in the Slot Breakdown section.
    5) What are 'ME Drivers' and 'Lucid Drivers'? The terms aren't included in the glossary, and I've never heard of them.
    6) How to flip between dual BIOS? I don't see any info on that
    7) There is ZERO documentation in the BIOS guide about RAID configuration. This is urgently needed. My RAID config was wiped, destroying all the data on it, when I updated the BIOS. I need to know if I can somehow safely back up the RAID config and how to deal with replacing/rebuilding a failed drive safely.
     
    Thanks!
     
    EVGATech_DaveB
    Also for the manuals,we are always trying to make the next manual or the next BIOS guide better than the previous.  Here are the links to the 3 main pieces of documentation for your board:



     
    Any bit of constructive criticism you can offer would be handy.  What specifically are they missing and what would you like to see more detail on?  Perhaps some parts are longer winded than they need to be.  Everyone is different and we try to cater to the masses I believe nothing is perfect and anything can always be improved.
     
    Hope the links help, and anything you would like to see added to the manuals, please provide some feedback and details.



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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: Z97 Classified install frustrations. 2015/07/20 11:03:34 (permalink)
    Hello,
    thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback.
    1)  The manual 1 and manual 2 setup has been removed for future manuals, and I think this is for the best.
    2)  Really?  I have printed it and I do not see terribly well and it looked alright to me.  There should have been a print manual in the box, are you referring to that, or a manual you printed from the PDF? If you are referring to the manual from the PDF, when it was printed was it coming out the same as the included manual?
    3)  OK, I can definitely look into improving that in the future.  You are right, that should definitely be better labelled.
    4)  You are right on the discrepancy, I think this should be resolved on current manuals as well, previously making some be generic across the line and others specific to the board, has been changed.  The manual lineup for the next gen will not have manuals 1 and 2 anymore
    5)  ME are for the Intel Management Engine, and Lucid is for the Lucid Technologies MVP2.0.  Now ME basically is controls for Intel VPro which mainly is for remote access of that PC, there are some other functions as well.  Lucid, I just checked the board I do not see any Lucid components on it, was this on the driver disk?
    6)  There is a switch just below the 24 pin, it is listed in the manual as part 32, it is a switch.  You can also hot switch the BIOS's as needed, say for instance you brick a BIOS, flip the switch, boot up off of the other BIOS, flip the switch while in windows, or in the BIOS and flash it, this will flash the other BIOS and in many cases can recover a failed BIOS.
    7)  OK, a RAID array is a completely different monster.  You updated the BIOS and the array was gone?  Unless you have done other things since the BIOS was updated, like format the drives, I highly doubt it is actually gone.  When a BIOS update is done, it does reset the BIOS to default values, which will set the SATA controller back to AHCI mode disabling any array you had.  Now in theory you should be able to go back into BIOS reenable RAID and restart, I have done this myself, on RAID 0 and 5 without issue, RAID1 can be a problem as it is a mirror and in that case it can desync the array, and it is 50/50 chance of getting that array back, BUT with RAID1 your data will still be there.  I do have an older FAQ for the RAID array building and repairing, and while it was based off of the X58, there is little difference in the Intel controllers as far as interface and how it works, the newer boards are just faster.
    But adding in a RAID guide is a challenge, but it is doable.  It might be its own separate guide but it is something I can look into.
     
    Thanks for the feedback, I am taking this info as I go forward on future manuals.  Just need to keep making things better and better.  They have come a long way from the P67/Z68 days, but there is always room for improvement.
     
    If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask, I will do what I can to assist.
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