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Pretty sure this will be on the news soon

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kram36
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/16 18:22:23 (permalink)
nateman_doo
Now that everyone is siding with the dude on the ground, let me play devils advocate...
 
Policing is a dirty business.  I only see the video while the guy is on the ground.  Does anyone know if he pulled a knife? threatened the cop?  flashed a gun?  was hopped up on substances?  
 
People are really quick to blame cops for everything.  How many times have you been pulled over by the cops, tazed and dragged out of your car during a routine traffic stop?  I know I never have (knock on wood) because I hand the dude my licence and registration whenever I am pulled over and don't evade questions.   Yea there are cops who are just out to ruin your day ticketing you for going 5 mph over, but most dont.  
 
The video starts off with the guy on the ground already, so the people have no idea what when down since they just pulled up.  yea it looks bad from the video, but take a closer look.  He doesn't really seem to be "resisting" since he is just in sort of a guard position (in which you can still mount a defense from the ground - go look at what anderson silva can do from the guard position), but he isn't exactly complying either.   The kid with the cell phone filming this said, whooa.. he just got tazed, but did anyone see the tazer in the video?  Everyone just assumed what he said was factual - this is believing everything you hear from the media, when in this case the media is just a kid who doesn't know anything about tatic's techniques or procedures for taking down a full grown adult male on your own.  Kid says "he is going to break is arm?!" - not at all.  There was no bending in the arm of an unnatural way at ALL going on when he said that.  
 
Here is what I see minus the kids commentary: initial whacking to the left leg of the perp, then his leg isn't offering resistance.  (who is to say he wasn't kicking the cop away with that leg, or pushing him off since its prior to the start of the video) then i see perp's right leg go up in an attempt to "resist" by keeping the cop at bay or at a distance.  Then I see cop whack the right leg, and disabling it.  Then he moves to the body to secure an arm.  While he is holding the arm, I see various body shots to take the fight out of him to subdue him.  Also, I see while the cop has his arm, the man try to swing his leg around either to get a better stance to relieve the pain from the arm, or to kick the cop and lash out to resist.  Watch the guys left hand, does it look like he is grabbing for the foot of the cop?  Who is to say that? 
 
It looks bad because people aren't accustomed to seeing violence.  The cop is using non-lethal force, de-escalating the situation by disabling the guys limbs to put cuffs on him and put him in the back of the car to arrest him.
 
Not to mention he is on his own for a few until help arrives.  So he is holding him so when help arrives he can put his gear away and bring out cuffs and put them on while the guys still passively resists.  Not an easy thing to do, trust me.  Try holding a full grown 200 lb male subdued and putting cuffs on him.  If the cop drops his baton, the dude can pick it up and use it on him with his free hand, so he just holds the guy until help arrives.
 
When I get pulled over, I move VERY slowly and never put my hands where they can't be seen.   In fact when the lights go on behind me, I dont even move.  I dont take my hands off the steering wheel, until the cop comes to the door and asks.  Then I move very slowly to do so.  The only exception is at night time, when i immediately turn on my dome light as I am pulling over and then return my hands to the steering wheel to alleviate any tension for the officer so his adrenaline isn't pumping when he comes to the door.  
 
Its all about perception.
 
Story: when i was stationed at Fort Hood a buddy and I were driving and i got pulled over.  The cop took me to his vehicle to talk to me, and my friend decided to get out of the car and smoke.  The cop almost drew his weapon on him.  Sounds excessive right?  But my friend even said this when i got back in the car, "well, I did kinda get of the car and put my hand in my pocket slowly and turn to him while pulling something shiny out (his zippo)."  So say what you want, the cops have no idea what situation they are about to run into.  
 
If the cop killed him the papers would have posted, "cop shoots unarmed teenager during routine traffic stop."  Public outrage would have ensued.  But while in court the dash cam would have showed my friend turning to face the cops with something shiny in his hand and the cop has to make a split second decision.  Then the media would say, COP ACQUITTED in shooting of an unarmed teenager - yea we were 18 at the time, and then riots?.  Fortunate for the situation he knew we were military so he just yelled at my friend VERY quickly and loud to get back in the car.  
 
Sorry for the long post, but PLEASE don't buy into the hype of police brutality by the media (or this dude with a cell phone) until you know all the facts. Charles Barkely said it best.  I have been watching this video over and over and even with the sound off just to try and look at it objectively, but yet as a solider who understands what this guy has to do to keep himself safe on the job, subdue a full grown adult male, and keep him from getting injured.   
 
 


I didn't see any resistance from the "perp". Soon as that Dodge truck moves out of the way at the beginning the man is laying on his back not resiting at all and the cop hits him in the leg with a baton. Then several more beats with the baton for no reason at all while the cop is trying to break the guys arm. This was torture in my eyes.
 
Now if this guy had been the dude that beheaded a woman a couple months ago, I would clap my hands if the cop beat him to death.
#31
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/16 21:14:54 (permalink)
I think that the increase in videos showing up where the police are excessive is best defined in two thoughts:
 
1) There has been a change in recent years from "We enforce the laws" to "We are the law"
Example: police have often been seen or heard telling a bystander who is recording "Turn your phone off"
Or;
Get out of your car!
What is the charge officer.
Are you resisting?
Am i under arrest?
Now your are going to jail because you are resisting.
Etc.....
Many police now believe that what they say IS the law. If you do not obey their words, you ARE breaking the law.
This has not always been such a large number of the police that act this way. And many shill have a good head on their shoulders.
 
2) There has been a massive increase in cell phones that could actually produce a decent video
So, there may have been more instances of over agressive and even violent police before, but, we just didnt have videos to prove it.
Or, these instances are on the rise.
 
Freedom of speech and thought is in danger when the enforcers of the laws begin to determine who can look over their shoulders.

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#32
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/17 00:23:17 (permalink)
nateman_doo
Now that everyone is siding with the dude on the ground, let me play devils advocate...
 
Policing is a dirty business.  I only see the video while the guy is on the ground.  Does anyone know if he pulled a knife? threatened the cop?  flashed a gun?  was hopped up on substances?  
 
People are really quick to blame cops for everything.  How many times have you been pulled over by the cops, tazed and dragged out of your car during a routine traffic stop?  I know I never have (knock on wood) because I hand the dude my licence and registration whenever I am pulled over and don't evade questions.   Yea there are cops who are just out to ruin your day ticketing you for going 5 mph over, but most dont.  
 
The video starts off with the guy on the ground already, so the people have no idea what when down since they just pulled up.  yea it looks bad from the video, but take a closer look.  He doesn't really seem to be "resisting" since he is just in sort of a guard position (in which you can still mount a defense from the ground - go look at what anderson silva can do from the guard position), but he isn't exactly complying either.   The kid with the cell phone filming this said, whooa.. he just got tazed, but did anyone see the tazer in the video?  Everyone just assumed what he said was factual - this is believing everything you hear from the media, when in this case the media is just a kid who doesn't know anything about tatic's techniques or procedures for taking down a full grown adult male on your own.  Kid says "he is going to break is arm?!" - not at all.  There was no bending in the arm of an unnatural way at ALL going on when he said that.  
 
Here is what I see minus the kids commentary: initial whacking to the left leg of the perp, then his leg isn't offering resistance.  (who is to say he wasn't kicking the cop away with that leg, or pushing him off since its prior to the start of the video) then i see perp's right leg go up in an attempt to "resist" by keeping the cop at bay or at a distance.  Then I see cop whack the right leg, and disabling it.  Then he moves to the body to secure an arm.  While he is holding the arm, I see various body shots to take the fight out of him to subdue him.  Also, I see while the cop has his arm, the man try to swing his leg around either to get a better stance to relieve the pain from the arm, or to kick the cop and lash out to resist.  Watch the guys left hand, does it look like he is grabbing for the foot of the cop?  Who is to say that? 
 
It looks bad because people aren't accustomed to seeing violence.  The cop is using non-lethal force, de-escalating the situation by disabling the guys limbs to put cuffs on him and put him in the back of the car to arrest him.
 
Not to mention he is on his own for a few until help arrives.  So he is holding him so when help arrives he can put his gear away and bring out cuffs and put them on while the guys still passively resists.  Not an easy thing to do, trust me.  Try holding a full grown 200 lb male subdued and putting cuffs on him.  If the cop drops his baton, the dude can pick it up and use it on him with his free hand, so he just holds the guy until help arrives.
 
When I get pulled over, I move VERY slowly and never put my hands where they can't be seen.   In fact when the lights go on behind me, I dont even move.  I dont take my hands off the steering wheel, until the cop comes to the door and asks.  Then I move very slowly to do so.  The only exception is at night time, when i immediately turn on my dome light as I am pulling over and then return my hands to the steering wheel to alleviate any tension for the officer so his adrenaline isn't pumping when he comes to the door.  
 
Its all about perception.
 
Story: when i was stationed at Fort Hood a buddy and I were driving and i got pulled over.  The cop took me to his vehicle to talk to me, and my friend decided to get out of the car and smoke.  The cop almost drew his weapon on him.  Sounds excessive right?  But my friend even said this when i got back in the car, "well, I did kinda get of the car and put my hand in my pocket slowly and turn to him while pulling something shiny out (his zippo)."  So say what you want, the cops have no idea what situation they are about to run into.  
 
If the cop killed him the papers would have posted, "cop shoots unarmed teenager during routine traffic stop."  Public outrage would have ensued.  But while in court the dash cam would have showed my friend turning to face the cops with something shiny in his hand and the cop has to make a split second decision.  Then the media would say, COP ACQUITTED in shooting of an unarmed teenager - yea we were 18 at the time, and then riots?.  Fortunate for the situation he knew we were military so he just yelled at my friend VERY quickly and loud to get back in the car.  
 
Sorry for the long post, but PLEASE don't buy into the hype of police brutality by the media (or this dude with a cell phone) until you know all the facts. Charles Barkely said it best.  I have been watching this video over and over and even with the sound off just to try and look at it objectively, but yet as a solider who understands what this guy has to do to keep himself safe on the job, subdue a full grown adult male, and keep him from getting injured.   
 
 




I really do get the point you are trying to get across here. I was kind of taught early from a old friend...
 
Here is my story:
He always just told me to be truthful with a police officer and it will almost always work in your favor. When I got into trouble for the first time, speeding... That buddy was with me. Thinking back, he saved me from the ticket. I was in a panic, didn't know where my license was... It was usually in my backpack, but I couldn't find it and I had been moving it around in my back seat in to try and find my wallet which ended up not being in there. When the officer got to my window, he politely asked what I was doing and I explained. He then asked if I knew how fast I was going. I wanted to under exaggerate and told him "55", when I was really going about 65 in a 40 zone. My buddy pops in and says "65!" and i'm all embarrassed and upset at him. The cop just says... "Looks like this is your first time... I'm going to let this go. Now you can't say a police officer never gave you a break."
 
It's so much easier to just comply. Especially when you know you are not in trouble... I have been in a few situations where I would of had a very hard time if I didn't provide the officer with my license to show I live where I parked my car. Like once because there were a bunch of vehicle break-in's and it was late at night... another I was routing some car audio wires late at night and it's not a normal thing. In both cases, I had my license ready to show I am who I say I am.

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#33
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/17 04:31:42 (permalink)
Now check out this recent incident. All I got to say is that the cop is a big fat COWARD for throwing a damn old man on the ground. Pisses me the hell off! The old man was so harmless. I know some of you will start play the what if game with me in defense of the police officer.
 

 
https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2014/dec/13/victoria-police-officer-investigated-for-tasing-dr/
 
 
post edited by HAZMAN_THE_GREAT - 2014/12/17 04:33:47


#34
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/17 04:42:55 (permalink)
kram36
This beat down looks very unnecessary. If I was the one filming it I would have to say something to the cop.




You want to get tased bro?.

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#35
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/17 12:28:30 (permalink)
Nateman, thanks for bringing a voice of reason to this discussion.

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#36
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/17 16:12:54 (permalink)
What the hell is that cop listening too? seriously? I mean, not to judge music tastes, it's not a bad song, but is that something appropriate for an officer to listen to in a patrol car? And the whole reason he pulled him over is because he has a state issued plate? That don't require stickers? How retarded is this cop?

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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/18 09:06:42 (permalink)
HAZMAN_THE_GREAT
Now check out this recent incident. All I got to say is that the cop is a big fat COWARD for throwing a damn old man on the ground. Pisses me the hell off! The old man was so harmless. I know some of you will start play the what if game with me in defense of the police officer.
 

 
https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2014/dec/13/victoria-police-officer-investigated-for-tasing-dr/
 
 


It does seem rough to the old man, but we don't hear what was transpiring in the conversation.  I see old man pointing, cop trying to take the paperwork (doesnt seem like the old man handed it to him, more of a snatch of impulse from an impatient kid..i mean cop), a likely verbal altercation (speculating-that says if you do not release the papers you will be put under arrest) and then Cop standing still and then the cop tries to put his arm behind his back to put cuffs on.  Then further resistance from the old man escalates until the cop has his hands full on the ground.  The cop had the old mans hand behind his back, all he had to do was stop moving and allow the cop to book him, but he didn't.  He fought the cop so the cop had to subdue him.  Old man had more fight in him then most young guys I work with. Probably went down while screaming something like "you damn kids these days" - but thats just more speculation on my part.
 
What it boils down to is without audio we can't draw any other conclusions other then he said/she said & the cop ended up standing with a tazer (winning).  In the end the police training and his tools allowed the cop to successfully do his job by placing the cuffs on the old man, not kill him or cause him serious bodily harm.  It seems excessive because he is old, but maybe the guy was a jujistu instructor the first half of his life, or special forces vet from back in the day.  Clearly the old man didn't go down without a fight.  The point is, Everyone is alive and the legal system can do its thing now.  Had the old man not hopped out of the car and started the chain of events the dash cam he wouldnt have been tazed, it probably would have just been a ticket and he could have fought it.  
 
Substitute this old man for a 25 year old male from the Jersey Shore who was talking crap and I doubt we would have any mercy for the kid.  If that was my dad being tazed, I would have a FIT and likely belligerent myself, but that wouldn't allow me to look at this objectively which is what I am trying to do.  
 
I do hate the fact that all the cop has to do is say something and if you don't follow his instructions he can use that same force to put you in the back of his car in cuffs, but thats something that the legislative branch is charge of... making the laws /dictating the rules of engagement or rules of force (whatever its called for cops - for soldiers its rules of engagement which means when can I engage a hostile using lethal force)
 
I do have to adjust fire on my last comment regarding the original posted story.  Since I was basing my last comment on nothing but that video I had to read the other article on it.  I see a bit of excessive head STOMPING (yea thats kind of the one thing I think the cop did dead wrong) but it allowed to cop to bring the guy in, and start the legal process.  The other guy was already had a criminal past (which included carrying a weapon) so already a hatred for cops (like its the cops that made him do his crimes), talked mess to the cop (which he even admitted he cursed at the cop) and the cop probably saw an aggressive male directing his rage towards him.  
 
Dude got banged up and so did his pride.  Maybe the dude started because he was looking to cause trouble so now he could sue.  But thats just a speculation from me.  Would any of you go mouthing off to cops, cursing at them to move their car?  I know I wouldnt.  I just wait patiently and grumble to myself because I don't want my daughters to see my head getting stomped on and thrown in the back of a squad car over my tail light out or something on the 6 o'clock news like this guy. 
 
I dont know the prior chain of events when the cop first got out of the car with the first guy (other then him cursing to move his car), but if the cop ran the plate, got the bio, and it said carrying a weapon in the past, would it be unreasonable to think that the guy could be doing it again?  Unless your the cop in the situation all we can do is comment.  I have no idea what tech was at the cops disposal (if any) that could have warned him he was dealing with a prior offender?
 
So, Minus the head stomp, I can't say it was that out of line without getting all the details.  Sadly I can't watch the better video at work to get deep into analysis, but I did watch it once last night before I went to bed.  
 
It kills me to say, but Jay-Z has the right idea in 99 problems:
 
...Got two choices y'all, pull over the car or
Bounce on the Devil, put the pedal to the floor
And I ain't tryin' to see no highway chase with Jake
Plus I got a few dollars, I can fight the case
So I pull over to the side of the road...
 
Again, sorry for the long post.  This ate up most of my lunch break so now I have to forage for food.
 
#38
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/18 09:48:37 (permalink)
Problem is the old man was stopping at his location there was no show of lights or siren until he was parked. The stop was over state plates that did not and does not require a sticker. The cop was an idiot for even starting anything and not knoe ing that law does not require a sticker on the cars plates.

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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/18 09:49:42 (permalink)
Besides that refusal to hand over private property is not a reason for any cop to pit his or hands in you. He has no warrant to take papers that are none of his concern.


Furthermore, freedom of speech. I can tell a cop anything in the book I want. I'm within my rights. As long as I'm not threatening or being violent I can do that. I've dealt with cops and never had a hassle. I got pulled over. Refused to lower my window further handed needed info over and the cop thanked me for knowing mine and his limitations. And the there is the argument...for all we know thesevcops have anger issues or other mental instabilities and they are legally armed. So... But I do agree. There are always too many variables in things
post edited by Chrome-M-Dragon - 2014/12/18 10:00:10

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#40
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/18 20:23:02 (permalink)
Chrome-M-Dragon
Besides that refusal to hand over private property is not a reason for any cop to pit his or hands in you. He has no warrant to take papers that are none of his concern.


Furthermore, freedom of speech. I can tell a cop anything in the book I want. I'm within my rights. As long as I'm not threatening or being violent I can do that. I've dealt with cops and never had a hassle. I got pulled over. Refused to lower my window further handed needed info over and the cop thanked me for knowing mine and his limitations. And the there is the argument...for all we know thesevcops have anger issues or other mental instabilities and they are legally armed. So... But I do agree. There are always too many variables in things

You have to present your paperwork to them, I don't think you could say not you cant have it because its private property.  At least in Jersey its that way.  It is considered a privilege to drive in the state, not a right.  So they have the advantage from the get-go.
 
I don't think you can call a cop anything you want, but i am no lawyer.  But, all the cop has to do is see an old medicine bottle on the seat of your car and he has grounds to search your car, bring in the K9 or whatever.  The system is not setup in yours and mines favor.  All I can say is that if you can't beat them... join them.  I have tossed around the idea of being an aux cop just to catch a break once in a while, but id by lying if I didn't say my military ID has gotten me out of many a ticket.  
 
On the other hand, I was in Daytona Beach as a youngin' and I thought my military ID would get me out of a ticket on A1 Ave.  The lady cop just threw it back on my lap, and said "what am I supposed to do with this?"  She gave me a ticket for having lights on the INTERIOR floor of my car, to light up the floor at night.  Red lights.  Yes.  I kid you not.  Helps when you drop something down there.
 
Ever since then I never EVER directly hand my ID to them.  I keep it on top of my drivers licence, and as the cop comes to the window (remember my hands are still on the wheel not moving) I reach slowly to pull out my wallet, and pull it out & place it on my lap, pull out my military drivers licence & place that on my lap, my VA card etc, and at the bottom of the pile is the licence that I then hand to the cop.  Also if you look around my car I always keep my patrol cap on the back seat just in case.  I dont speak of the items, they are just on display.  If the cop asks I will tell them all about my military assignment & career etc (cause sometimes they were in too) and since its generally something dumb I am getting pulled over for (not signaling, coming to a complete stop to make a right on red, or going 10 mph over) they just send me on my way.
 
now I am probably going to get a ticket tomorrow.  
#41
Chrome-M-Dragon
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Re: Pretty sure this will be on the news soon 2014/12/19 04:47:45 (permalink)
I was talking about whatever papers he had in his hand when he got out of the car. Those weren't his registration. He was clearly going about his business doing whatever it is he was doing. This papers are what I'm talking about. My cousin is in the Ohio state patrol. Your freedom of speech exists. Obviously you can't threaten harm but if you tell em to f off and tour not pulled over or anything they can't do anything legally but harass you for it.

People are, well, only Human. We know that. The rule of law is borne out in identifying, condemning, and punishing those who violate the standards on which we all agree. This is exactly what we do in america. -James Inhofe
 
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