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Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say

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martinch
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 13:04:47 (permalink)
srtie4kI think you might have a false impression that it is easy for your average US citizen to get their hands on fully automatic weapons.

I was always under the impression that it was quite hard for the average American to get their hands on automatic weapons, as I know some states have gun controls not dissimilar to the UK's prior to the Dunblane massacre, although this is somewhat based upon the assumption that "Law and Order is roughly accurate", which may or may not be valid. What we end up with in the UK is tragic  stories such as this, coverage of the rather loud challenging of the ban on assault-type weapons, and documentaries featuring "gun enthusiasts" (which I'm well aware will give a distorted view of what it's actually like) - for example, one documentary featured a father taking his ~10 year old daughter out to shoot cut-outs of zombies with an AR-15, and another family who went off to shoot up an old car with their M134.  Obviously I know these are not typical cases, but this is the image we get.  I was more trying to explain the image that we get over here, and how this would go some way to explain our seeming non-understanding (hence the use of "seeming lack", which should really have been "perceived lack" - doh) - sorry if it didn't come across!

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kaninja
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 13:05:35 (permalink)
kougar
A child has no business firing an SMG or an assault weapon. Teaching them about gun safety or letting them fire a .22 rifle is fine, but giving them a SMG to actually fire? Utterly reckless, a kid doesn't understand the physics or have the muscle strength to deal with it and has no business handling such weapons regardless. Plenty of videos of adults that can't even properly handle the recoil on high-powered weapons.


+1 kougar.

Just like those guys thought it was funny letting than woman who couldn't have weighed more than 90 lbs fire that .50 Desert Eagle on that youtube video....reckless. At least she only ended up with a bloody nose.

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#32
Brad_Hawthorne
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 14:47:25 (permalink)
sahafiec
I would never allow my children to shoot, no matter how old.
why are people so crazy about guns and shooting!?
there is already more than enough war all around the world...


It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 17:32:11 (permalink)
My thoughts go immediately where they should, to the 9yr old girl. Just witnessing the aftermath and more then likely feelings of guilt from this accident is going to take a lot of therapy.

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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 18:11:36 (permalink)
just a horrid event, while im all for gun rights, that girl should not have been allowed to even touch that weapon, she will have major physiological probably the rest of her life from this.   

                               
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sahafiec
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 21:04:57 (permalink)
Brad_Hawthorne
 
It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

I think I'm not american enough in my mind to be able to understand this logic (no offence).
but still I never heard of someone dying while bowling or playing golf.
 
so if it's the same why does it end so differently? 

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#36
JGLuxe
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 21:12:35 (permalink)
sahafiec
Brad_Hawthorne
 
It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

I think I'm not american enough in my mind to be able to understand this logic (no offence).
but still I never heard of someone dying while bowling or playing golf.
 
so if it's the same why does it end so differently? 




This makes no sense, Just because you think no one has died bowling or playing golf, What are the chances of someone breaking a bone while bowling/golfing?
 
Now what are the chances of breaking a bone playing soccer/football?
 
Your logic is flawed, A sport is a sport no matter the risk.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport

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sahafiec
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 21:37:59 (permalink)
the only thing which makes no sense to me is taking children to shooting ranges, letting them use automatic weapons and calling that "shooting sport".
traying to extend the meaning of "shooting sport" so excessively that children and automatic guns fit in is rediculous, at least for me.
that's my personal opinion and I'm far away from trying to change yours.
 
Your logic is flawed...

I'll take it as a compliment but you should try to stay on topic instead of judging my person.
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/08/28 21:50:37

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#38
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 21:52:28 (permalink)
I don't think anyone agrees with the 9 year old shooting an Uzi... So when your kids are 25 they aren't allowed to fire a firearm?

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#39
rjohnson11
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 22:39:29 (permalink)
RushXTC
sahafiec
Brad_Hawthorne
 
It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

I think I'm not american enough in my mind to be able to understand this logic (no offence).
but still I never heard of someone dying while bowling or playing golf.
 
so if it's the same why does it end so differently? 




This makes no sense, Just because you think no one has died bowling or playing golf, What are the chances of someone breaking a bone while bowling/golfing?
 
Now what are the chances of breaking a bone playing soccer/football?
 
Your logic is flawed, A sport is a sport no matter the risk.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport


I know several golfers who have broken a bone while playing. I also know of many golfers who have thrown their back out, twisted a knee, etc

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#40
kaninja
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 22:53:11 (permalink)
rjohnson11
RushXTC
sahafiec
Brad_Hawthorne
 
It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

I think I'm not american enough in my mind to be able to understand this logic (no offence).
but still I never heard of someone dying while bowling or playing golf.
 
so if it's the same why does it end so differently? 




This makes no sense, Just because you think no one has died bowling or playing golf, What are the chances of someone breaking a bone while bowling/golfing?
 
Now what are the chances of breaking a bone playing soccer/football?
 
Your logic is flawed, A sport is a sport no matter the risk.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport


I know several golfers who have broken a bone while playing. I also know of many golfers who have thrown their back out, twisted a knee, etc


Yes, that is the same. Every year lots of people kill themselves cleaning their bowling balls. Also, golf clubs should be locked away because many children die accidentally each year when they show a friend their parents golf clubs unsupervised.

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#41
sahafiec
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 23:25:56 (permalink)
BF3PRO
... So when your kids are 25 they aren't allowed to fire a firearm?

mines not as I don't see firing firearms as a "must have in their lives", there are enough other types of sports.
 
for the guys still trying to get me wrong, I like weapons myself and also hunting.
I was maybe not even 8 as I fired a buckshot for the first time from my grandpas double barrel TOZ rifle.
was it right? as an adult I can only say "NO, it was not", I wouldn't do it.
I've spent more time hunting than some here can imagine so I know what I'm talking about.
the problem are not guns rather the general handling and excessive extension of their sports aspect leading to such incidents...
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/08/29 00:02:35

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#42
srtie4k
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 05:02:22 (permalink)
sahafiec
BF3PRO
... So when your kids are 25 they aren't allowed to fire a firearm?

mines not as I don't see firing firearms as a "must have in their lives", there are enough other types of sports.
 
for the guys still trying to get me wrong, I like weapons myself and also hunting.
I was maybe not even 8 as I fired a buckshot for the first time from my grandpas double barrel TOZ rifle.
was it right? as an adult I can only say "NO, it was not", I wouldn't do it.
I've spent more time hunting than some here can imagine so I know what I'm talking about.
the problem are not guns rather the general handling and excessive extension of their sports aspect leading to such incidents...




Might I remind you that when you decide to teach your kid how to drive, you're placing him/her at a greater risk of injury/death than if you taught them how to shoot?
 
Life is a game about minimizing risk. Whether you're teaching a kid to properly handle a car or to properly handle a firearm, there is some amount of risk involved. Statistically, driving a car is FAR more risky than firing a gun, and I have no problem teaching my kid how to drive, thus it only makes logical sense that if my kid wants to shoot a gun, I'll have no problem teaching them how to do that in a controlled, supervised environment. But I'm not going to be handing them a .45 cal handgun and telling them to have at it, just as I wouldn't stick them behind the wheel of a 450HP Corvette for their first driving experience.
 
You catch my drift?

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#43
sahafiec
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 05:29:51 (permalink)
Life is not only about minimizing risks but even more about avoiding unnecessary ones.
 
do you have children srtie4k?
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/08/29 05:35:49

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#44
srtie4k
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 06:34:31 (permalink)
I don't have kids, but I'm not really sure why that's important. It doesn't change my mind about my responsibilities if I did.
 
And I don't feel that leisurely shooting guns is an unnecessary risk. If the kid wants to do it and is old/strong/mature enough to do so, why would I deny him an opportunity that is no more dangerous than playing any other sport given the right supervision? I would rather instill gun safety and discipline in a controlled environment from a young age then let him grow up fearing them because he doesn't know a thing about them.

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#45
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 06:40:46 (permalink)
Brad_Hawthorne
sahafiec
I would never allow my children to shoot, no matter how old.
why are people so crazy about guns and shooting!?
there is already more than enough war all around the world...


It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.


Finally, Someone with a little sense. Shooting guns for a lot of people is really just a hobby or sport. I personally like to go and shoot at the range just for the fun of it.

#46
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 07:40:52 (permalink)
Its an honest to god accident.  Granted the instructor could have had her put a few more shots down range in semi to get a better feel for her handling of the weapon, but she held it firm the first round and I guess he assessed that she could try it.  He was right on top of her during the whole thing to prevent her from getting injured.  The girl didn't seem like she was scared or anything.  It really was just a freak accident.  Accidents happen on ranges, just like they happen on race tracks.  All the gear in the world sometimes just does not mitigate a freak accident.  If he was standing on the girls other side, he would be at work today and we wouldn't be talking about this.  Just like that.
 
I know Ive shot when I was her age growing up in a 2nd amendment household.  I never shot an Uzi being in the communist state of NJ, but I shot 22's all day long at the range with my father, and a few large caliber handguns which the same thing could have happened.  Just like anything doing there are risks involved.  We could have gotten in a car accident on the way to a range.  Just a freak accident.  That poor girl will be traumatized for life.  Will it prevent me from taking my daughter to the range? absolutely not.  I won't give her a shotgun, until she has the body mass to absorb the recoil but she can plink all day with a 22, or even an AR. 

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#47
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 07:44:53 (permalink)
I just don't see how you think it's okay to tell your 25 year old what they can and can't do... Whether it's illegal or legal at that age they should make decisions for themselves... I don't have kids either but I assure you they will shoot their first firearm at 7 or 8... The problem lies in a bigger issue than the 2A it's also a property rights issue... I also want people to know AR DOES NOT STAND FOR ASSAULT RIFLE it stands for ArmaLite...
post edited by BF3PRO - 2014/08/29 07:46:47

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#48
JGLuxe
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 07:58:57 (permalink)
sahafiec
BF3PRO
... So when your kids are 25 they aren't allowed to fire a firearm?

mines not as I don't see firing firearms as a "must have in their lives", there are enough other types of sports.
 
for the guys still trying to get me wrong, I like weapons myself and also hunting.
I was maybe not even 8 as I fired a buckshot for the first time from my grandpas double barrel TOZ rifle.
was it right? as an adult I can only say "NO, it was not", I wouldn't do it.
I've spent more time hunting than some here can imagine so I know what I'm talking about.
the problem are not guns rather the general handling and excessive extension of their sports aspect leading to such incidents...




 
What? The? Hell?
 
Defending ones property/life doesn't qualify a firearm as a "Must have in their lives"?!?!

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#49
sahafiec
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 08:34:04 (permalink)
RushXTC
 
What? The? Hell?
Defending ones property/life doesn't qualify a firearm as a "Must have in their lives"?!?!

yes, seems difficult for you to imagine right?
there is a big world outside the USA where people are able to do that without.
 
sports and selfdefence, the two never getting old arguments of the weapon industry.
those sounds like a cheap hardcore selling advertisement for me but well, if you are happy this way no problem for me.
we are all just writing our personal opinions, that's all.
 
I just wonder sometimes why european think so differently about weapons although there are at least as many weapon producers in Europe as in the USA.

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#50
JGLuxe
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 08:38:37 (permalink)
sahafiec
RushXTC
 
What? The? Hell?
Defending ones property/life doesn't qualify a firearm as a "Must have in their lives"?!?!

yes, seems difficult for you to imagine right?
there is a big world outside the USA where people are able to do that without.
 
sports and selfdefence, the two never getting old arguments of the weapon industry.
those sounds like a cheap hardcore selling advertisement for me but well, if you are happy this way no problem for me.
we are all just writing our personal opinions, that's all.
 
I just wonder sometimes why european think so differently about weapons although there are at least as many weapon producers in Europe as in the USA.




Oh you're not American, I can understand now!! My apologies!
 
We can actually have guns still, We don't have to go through long measures to purchase a weapon. To us they're like toys (Although people would get mad for calling them), But they are adult toys that you must be very careful with.
 
There's people who have 10+ weapons for themselves as they enjoy collecting/shooting. We love it with a passion, Although not all of us... But we do over power the people who are against weapons. I mean there's a video of liberals shooting guns and saying "I had fun and would like to do it again" yet, Oppose guns... What?

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#51
nateman_doo
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 08:50:33 (permalink)
ehh... I wouldn't exactly refer to them as toys, but yes people do collect them like toys.  Id refer to them more like a tool.  A specific tool to do a specific job.  Be that a recreational tool, providing food for ones family, or a tool for protection.

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#52
bigster
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 10:45:39 (permalink)
Im from the Netherlands were guns laws are really strict, on my vaccation in the US last year i could not resist myself to go to a gunrage and have a go with several different weapons.
I now understand you guys a lot better... its fun!! If i lived in the US i know i would own at least 1 gun. 
 
BTW im a terrible shot.
post edited by bigster - 2014/08/29 10:46:45
#53
mdk7777777
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 11:32:38 (permalink)
sahafiec
Brad_Hawthorne
 
It's a sport like bowling of golf. No more or no less zealotry than other sports.

I think I'm not american enough in my mind to be able to understand this logic (no offence).
but still I never heard of someone dying while bowling or playing golf.
 
so if it's the same why does it end so differently? 


Well, you are not very well informed then.;)
 
Every year dozens of people are killed by lightening in the US. The number one location is golf courses, followed by baseball fields and soccer fields(least because so few play here).
In addition, sever people are killed by baseball hits, and of course heart attacks while bowling.
 
While these might total all be numbers in the low hundreds, 30,000 or more are killed in auto accidents...many traveling to and from sporting events (Mothers also killed with their children)
 
My point:
 
This accident stands out exactly because it is so rare. We ignore the kids killed in the van coming home from practice exactly because it is a daily occurrence. No one rises up demanding an end to the pointless travel involved in little league, soccer or any other after school activity that involves travel (band, football, gymnastics...all require an insane amount of driving to support)
 
Was the instructor unwise? Yup.
Would I allow my child to participate in a similar event? Yes, but I would be on the range supervising myself.
Are there a thousand sports that are insanely dangerous in comparison? Yes.
 
Would I allow my child to participate in MOTO-X, base jumping, skate boarding,trampolining, free style skiing..etc. etc. etc...? No, the risk of breaking your neck is too high.
 
Do I think these sports need to be outlawed? NO.
 
People take a single incident out of context and extrapolate it out include the entire sport.
 
If we allow society to rules our lives in this reactionary way, we either end up in a padded cell, or on the field of battle chopping off our enemies heads...
 
Find the happy zen of reasoned, rational retrospection rather than reactionary emotionalism. ;) :)
 
PS. My wife won't let my 17 year old son on a ladder to clean the gutters.
So I am very failure with irrational, and misplaced risk avoidance. He drives every day back and forth from HS, and she has no problem with that risk.
 
 
post edited by mdk7777777 - 2014/08/29 11:41:58
#54
Chrome-M-Dragon
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 14:22:10 (permalink)
Meh. So many invalid arguments. People have rights and freedoms. In or out of the US. What you like or dislike of what they do with those freedoms is invalid. Tragedy happens, whether it's a kid overwhelmed by the recoil of a gun, or a kid overwhelmed by a vehicle that just blew a tire, it's life. Guns are not anymore unsafe as anything else in the world. Death comes in MILLIONS of ways, centering hate on just one of those ways is ignorant. And for those outside the USA, Lets lump England (the whole UK that is), Ireland, Papa New Guinea and Japan together. Those four countries don't come close to the population of the US. So 212, 336, 600 (total) to the US's 318,645,000. The murders in the US per 100k people is only 4.7 killed for every 100k. Those four countries nearly 100 million less in people get about 13.7 murders for every 100k people.
 
Now, lets look at guns per capita. The US has a WHOPPING 97 guns for every 100 people. Papa (the highest murder rate in my list) has only 1.2 guns per 100 people. Japan at .6, the UK (Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and wales) 33.6 guns per 100 citizens. Ireland is at 8.6 per 100. Total here is 97 per 100 for the USA, and 44 per 100 total for the others. So, more guns here in the US, less murders. And that murder rate isn't ONLY guns. So all this bull crap arguments over guns should be banned etc... meh what good is that doing the rest of the world? You don't need guns to kill, period. Taking guns away solves nothing. Humans will continue to kill one another, it's what we do.  *walks away*
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ountries_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
 
 

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#55
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 15:47:43 (permalink)
America and Switzerland has one of the highest known firearms per capita and as gun ownership has gone up crime has dropped.. Might be correlation might not... The thing is our Constitution is there to limit and keep government in check... I wish the Founders would have recorded what will be considered tyranny so we know when it's time to cash in on the 2A... I'm pretty sure we will all know whether you are anti gun or not... When people are locked up by the thousands held against their will for ill reasons ie politics or other we will know... The Constitution has survived this long... It will live forever as long as we defend it...

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#56
mdk7777777
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 16:55:06 (permalink)
Just one more point from the daily news.
 
The UN says 3.5 million people are displaced by the conflict in Syria.
 
Yes, there are many sides, and many issues...but if those 3 million people were US citizens, those who would have sought to terrorize them would have faced 3 million personal weapons.
 
The unarmed Syrians are terrorized by a dictator on one side and religious fanatics on the other...While the  Peshmerga stand their ground.
 
Given the daily repetition of history, I will always go with the right to self defense.
When you realize that you should have been armed, it is already too late.
#57
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 17:18:00 (permalink)
LOL... Man, how people respond...
 
  1. And accident is an accident. Gun, Car, chainsaw, weed eater, walking down the stairs, being a passenger in a car... I could go on...
  2. Any death in this manner is preventable. Yet, it is still an accident.
  3. Anyone putting anything in the hands of another person has the responsibility of making sure they know how it will respond.
    1. Example... Place only three rounds in the weapon. By the time it has kicked back, all the "Danger" has left the gun.
    2. Then add a few more...
    3. Repeat...
    4. Now the student has a clear understanding as to what to expect, how to grip, and the instructor also knows if this is even a good idea by now.
  4. Common sense "Has" to be in play for this kind of thing. 
  5. It is tragic. But it is not a gun control issue. No more than this is a child abuse situation (Trauma). 
  6. This, was just stupid. And sadly the instructor paid the ultimate price for it.

 
#58
mdk7777777
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 18:48:18 (permalink)
  1. It is tragic. But it is not a gun control issue. No more than this is a child abuse situation (Trauma).
Yeah, but that is not the way 1000 opinion piece/yellow journalism/sensationalists have written about it.
Notice the amount of international debate here.
 
By the same logic(that all Americans are irresponsible gun nuts) put out by the press , I would have to suppose that Aussies support letting babies be eaten by dingo.
 
 
 
 
#59
Chrome-M-Dragon
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Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/29 18:52:53 (permalink)
Wait, Aussies don't feed their young to Dingos? I was so lied to!

People are, well, only Human. We know that. The rule of law is borne out in identifying, condemning, and punishing those who violate the standards on which we all agree. This is exactly what we do in america. -James Inhofe
 
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#60
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