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Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say

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rjohnson11
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2014/08/26 23:03:06 (permalink)
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
 
Personally I would not have allowed such a young person to fire an Uzi. I would have waited until the child was older.

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    XrayMan
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/26 23:05:43 (permalink)
     
    I heard about that earlier today. With the kick that an Uzi has, I'm not surprised that happened. The instructor could have at least helped her to hold the weapon, or something. (Fail at it's highest).

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    sahafiec
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/26 23:25:47 (permalink)
    I would never allow my children to shoot, no matter how old.
    why are people so crazy about guns and shooting!?
    there is already more than enough war all around the world...

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    AzN-SoLjA
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 02:22:00 (permalink)
    tbh, its a nice pastime doing something like skeet shooting, hunting, etc. This was just unfortunate incident and something the instructor should have "known" how to instruct and being safe. Especially that kick that certain guns have.

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    srtie4k
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 04:37:32 (permalink)
    sahafiec
    I would never allow my children to shoot, no matter how old.
    why are people so crazy about guns and shooting!?
    there is already more than enough war all around the world...




    Shooting for leisure has absolutely nothing to do with war or killing. It's a sport, just like any other. Car racing is also an excellent sport, despite the fact that auto accidents are a huge cause of death in the US, far more than gun related deaths. Doesn't mean you should never let your kid drive a car, no matter how old.
    post edited by srtie4k - 2014/08/27 04:39:13

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    zophar
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 05:33:14 (permalink)
    Several years back there was a similar incident where a child was allowed to do this and the recoil rolled the gun back and he shot himself. Don't remember if he died or not, but seriously what were they thinking. I let my kids shoot, but I'm there holding the firearm with them, and they would definitely not be shooting full auto by themselves.


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    sahafiec
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 05:33:33 (permalink)
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.

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    rjohnson11
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 05:45:31 (permalink)
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 

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    aka_STEVE_b
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 05:47:58 (permalink)
    The instructor needed more instruction himself..........

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    Fbmbirds
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 06:00:00 (permalink)
    As someone else has posted on here before "Play stupid games, Win stupid prizes" and like always another candidate for the 2014 Darwin awards.

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    jd72389
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 06:22:19 (permalink)
    rjohnson11
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 




    well said
     
    in my opinion children under 10 should stick with a .22 or a .410 bore shotty that is either bol, lever, or pump action etc if no one is helping them hold it and all hand guns they should have assistance
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    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 06:23:00 (permalink)
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    I started shooting when I was 9, with shotguns and rifles. Of course, they weren't uzi's, but it gave me an understanding and quickly moved on to pistols and other weapons. It is good for EVERYONE to have an understanding of weapons, how they function, and how to control them. I understand waiting until they are able to control something on their own, and this is definitely one of those situations, and at least it was on a gun range and not somewhere that a lot of people could have been hurt.

    Now, have you seen the video of the 13 year old champion shooter? http://youtu.be/wZE-EDGw2vo it's very hard to train someone without training them... Think about that. She would have no understanding without training.
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    ridesy
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 06:35:56 (permalink)
    rjohnson11
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 


    Always struggle with these conversations with our counterparts "over the pond" as we recoil at images of Iraqi/Syrian/Afghan or ANY children holding guns, as it just looks "wrong".
     
    You see a photo of a ten year old African boy, or a nine year old Iraqi lad holding an AK47 and we recoil in horror (odd that recoil is correct English word for this feeling too), but in the U.S. many, not all by any means, see this as OK/somehow normal and don't react with the same utter horror at this utterly tragic story as we non gun-carrying nations.
     
    As sahafiec has said the comparison to deaths on roads/racing or anything the like is just nuts, as these things are not designed to kill whereas I hate to point out guns were.
    Guns were not invented for sport/target practice or anything like that, they were developed to kill and I would hazard a guess specifically to kill people (use for hunting probably came as a by-product).
     
    Also would just like to add that we over here find the constant reminder that this is part of some arcane constitution as a reason to allow this, just doesn't hold water.
    I am sure a historian could show ancient laws/rights that would approve of drowning suspected witches and other equally ridiculous and violent things, but society in these countries has moved on and I am hopeful, really hopeful, that if the founding fathers who wrote that ancient document could see how guns and for that matter society have evolved that they would agree this may now be "out of context".
     
    I am sure I will be shot down in flames, as so many in the U.S. still support gun ownership despite many atrocities far worse than this very unfortunate accident, but equally don't be surprised to find that your allies across the pond do find this very, very odd!
     
    Ridesy

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    JGLuxe
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 08:27:35 (permalink)
    Reminds me of this incident... Sad... Why do they feel it's okay to allow such young children to fire a submachine gun in fully automatic?
     

     
    It would be better to teach them using a long weapon such as an AR-15 due to the shoulder support (Heck, Even if they can't reach fully, So long as the stock is under the armpit it'll help, That's how my cousin learned how to shoot his dads AK47).

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    Fbmbirds
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 12:15:46 (permalink)

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    Randolla
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 13:27:21 (permalink)
    I do not own any guns myself but I am not anti gun as a rule.  I am however anti stupid. 
     
    I think letting any child fire a fully automatic weapon is stupid. I teach many children how to use the pottery wheel to make pottery.  My youngest student ever was just about 10 and she was an exceptional student.  It has nothing to do with talent or how well they can follow direction. Although that is part of it, it has everything to do with how strong they are and their muscle coordination. At that age, most children just don't have the strength needed to make pots. They also don't have the strength needed to fire a fully automatic weapon. Just my opinion.
     
    I don't see any good reason to take a chance like that and let a young child fire and automatic weapon.  The downside to failing is far too great as what unfortunately happened here.   

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    Hillguy
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 14:20:04 (permalink)
    jd72389
    rjohnson11
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 




    well said
     
    in my opinion children under 10 should stick with a .22 or a .410 bore shotty that is either bol, lever, or pump action etc if no one is helping them hold it and all hand guns they should have assistance




    +1 sahafiec , a most sensible response from a responsible owner , This is just another sad example of a terrible tragedy brought on by reckless incompetence. I live in Canada and we have lots of guns ( just not a lot of pistols , and no full on automatics ) I'm sure there are gun ranges where restricted weapons are permitted but their purchase and storage would be strictly regulated and so it should be. My first gun at 10 or 11 was a crack barrel .410 and then a .22 rifle. Later came the pump action shot guns , .308 and my favorite ... pops old .30-06
     
    People in the US can defend their right to bear arms and defend their constitution - no problem - But come on people , kids and uzi's ... that's just stupid
     

     
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    notfordman
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 16:39:14 (permalink)
    Hillguy
    jd72389
    rjohnson11
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 




    well said
     
    in my opinion children under 10 should stick with a .22 or a .410 bore shotty that is either bol, lever, or pump action etc if no one is helping them hold it and all hand guns they should have assistance




    +1 sahafiec , a most sensible response from a responsible owner , This is just another sad example of a terrible tragedy brought on by reckless incompetence. I live in Canada and we have lots of guns ( just not a lot of pistols , and no full on automatics ) I'm sure there are gun ranges where restricted weapons are permitted but their purchase and storage would be strictly regulated and so it should be. My first gun at 10 or 11 was a crack barrel .410 and then a .22 rifle. Later came the pump action shot guns , .308 and my favorite ... pops old .30-06
     
    People in the US can defend their right to bear arms and defend their constitution - no problem - But come on people , kids and uzi's ... that's just stupid
     




    +1
    #18
    wmmills
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 16:49:20 (permalink)
    I say whats more appalling then the story is the face of the second correspondent jean casarez.... her face looks like a deers ass sent for tanning!! Im sorry guys, is that harsh?!?!? :P

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    JGLuxe
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 16:51:51 (permalink)
    hillguy
     
    People in the US can defend their right to bear arms and defend their constitution - no problem - But come on people , kids and uzi's ... that's just stupid
     


     
     
    Don't worry, We all agree with this.

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    #20
    BF3PRO
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/27 20:29:02 (permalink)
    ridesy
    rjohnson11
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.


    In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle. 
     
    Gun recoils, especially an Uzi,  are too strong in my opinion for girls this young. 


    Always struggle with these conversations with our counterparts "over the pond" as we recoil at images of Iraqi/Syrian/Afghan or ANY children holding guns, as it just looks "wrong".
     
    You see a photo of a ten year old African boy, or a nine year old Iraqi lad holding an AK47 and we recoil in horror (odd that recoil is correct English word for this feeling too), but in the U.S. many, not all by any means, see this as OK/somehow normal and don't react with the same utter horror at this utterly tragic story as we non gun-carrying nations.
     
    As sahafiec has said the comparison to deaths on roads/racing or anything the like is just nuts, as these things are not designed to kill whereas I hate to point out guns were.
    Guns were not invented for sport/target practice or anything like that, they were developed to kill and I would hazard a guess specifically to kill people (use for hunting probably came as a by-product).
     
    Also would just like to add that we over here find the constant reminder that this is part of some arcane constitution as a reason to allow this, just doesn't hold water.
    I am sure a historian could show ancient laws/rights that would approve of drowning suspected witches and other equally ridiculous and violent things, but society in these countries has moved on and I am hopeful, really hopeful, that if the founding fathers who wrote that ancient document could see how guns and for that matter society have evolved that they would agree this may now be "out of context".
     
    I am sure I will be shot down in flames, as so many in the U.S. still support gun ownership despite many atrocities far worse than this very unfortunate accident, but equally don't be surprised to find that your allies across the pond do find this very, very odd!
     
    Ridesy
    The difference is in Africa those children are forced into it along with the children in terrorist organizations in places like Iraq... It wasn't good she started with an Uzi especially at full auto... Maybe a .22 would have been betted... Our Founding Father's were pretty ingenious weren't they? Using some paper to layout government limiters that are still used today... It's so Arcane until an officer illegally searches you... Look at Switzerland where you are given a SIG and given some training... I'm sure they wouldn't agree it is taken out of context as most free masons still hold these truths to be self evident... Not all but most founders Masonic... They were smart and got it in writing always get your documents in writing... What do you consider ancient???
    post edited by BF3PRO - 2014/08/27 20:39:42

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    #21
    Kamarad
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 03:36:19 (permalink)
    I was looking around articles and I actually found the video that shows the actual incident directly before the instructor gets shot.  She does one shot very well, but then she goes full auto and you can see the gun suddenly curve to her left where the instructor is right next to her.  The video abruptly cuts off at that point, but I believe that someone out there has the rest of the video showing him actually getting shot.  So sad.......


    #22
    Fbmbirds
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 05:31:57 (permalink)
    Kamarad
    I was looking around articles and I actually found the video that shows the actual incident directly before the instructor gets shot.  She does one shot very well, but then she goes full auto and you can see the gun suddenly curve to her left where the instructor is right next to her.  The video abruptly cuts off at that point, but I believe that someone out there has the rest of the video showing him actually getting shot.  So sad.......


    I know and Hope that video turns up. Really looking forward to seeing how it went down.
    PM if you find it out there.

    #23
    rjohnson11
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 05:39:10 (permalink)
    The police have only allowed the video to be released only up to a second before the fetal shot was fired. I think this is logical and prevents pain to the families. 

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    #24
    srtie4k
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 06:44:12 (permalink)
    sahafiec
    so a 9 year old girl firing UZI is actually doing sports? WOW, that's a very interesting point of view.
    the comparison with car driving is just ridiculous if you ask me.




    I never said a 9 year old firing an Uzi was smart. Your original statement made the association that guns are ONLY war-related, which they are not, and I replied specifically to that point.
     
    And the connection with cars is valid. Frankly, it really doesn't matter what the intended purpose of either is, that has absolutely no importance when you consider that in the US, where cars and guns largely enjoy the same amount of freedom from regulation/prohibition, car related fatalities FAR exceed gun related fatalities, by orders of magnitude.
     
    If you don't let your kid do something simply because it has an association with war, but you do let them do something else where the risk of death FAR exceeds the thing you won't let them do, what does that say about you?

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    #25
    rjohnson11
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 06:53:17 (permalink)
    OK everyone please post and respect each other's opinions even if you disagree with them. 

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    #26
    kaninja
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 07:49:12 (permalink)
    When I was 9 I had a Cooey single shot bolt action .22. I must have put a thousand rounds through that thing. I couldn't have handled an uzi safely at that age. To put an uzi in this child's hands was a big mistake that ended up costing someone their life. This was preventable with the use of common sense.

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    #27
    martinch
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 12:16:38 (permalink)
    rjohnson11In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle.

    Obviously America has a different culture to Europe, but I don't think it's as much a usage of guns for sport (target-shooting) that us foreigners have a hard time grasping, but the perceived lack of "proportionality" (overkill) in the weapon selected.  For instance, I can see why someone would need/want a pistol (protection, target shooting), rifle (hunting, pest control, target shooting), or shotgun (pest control, hunting).  What I cannot see is why someone would "need" an assault rifle- or Uzi-type weapon, let alone an M134 minigun(!) - being military-grade weapons, they just "seem not to be sensible", if that makes sense..? It (and this next bit probably needs to be read in the voice of "Ducky" from NCIS in order for the intended humour to work) "all seems a little unnecessary, dear boy". (this is intended as an explanation, and not "a go", in case my intention doesn't come across in text )
     
    BF3PROUsing some paper to layout government limiters that are still used today... It's so Arcane until an officer illegally searches you...

    I fear you are putting too much faith into a "written" constitution (as compared to an "unwritten" one).  As an example, over the last ~7 years, I have seen a noticeable number of posts in photography forums by Americans, where they state that they were stopped, searched, and either arrested, threatened with arrest or otherwise harassed simply for taking pictures.  Sadly, judging by forum posts, we (the UK) seem to have "imported" this problem fairly promptly, although it thankfully seems to have died off recently.  In both jurisdictions, the activities of the individuals were legal and protected by law (the constitution, and Human Rights Act, respectively), but this doesn't seem to have prevented some "unfortunate incidents".   Thankfully, I've never had a problem - possibly because I tend to harass animals and flowers with my camera, rather than buildings and people.
    post edited by martinch - 2014/08/28 12:28:34

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    #28
    srtie4k
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 12:30:02 (permalink)
    martinch
    rjohnson11In the USA guns and shooting targets at gun ranges is common place and affirmed in the U.S. Constitution. Those living in countries outside the USA have a hard time grasping this concept but it is part of American culture and lifestyle.

    Obviously America has a different culture to Europe, but I don't think it's as much a usage of guns for sport (target-shooting) that us foreigners have a hard time grasping, but the seeming lack of "proportionality" (overkill) in the weapon selected.  For instance, I can see why someone would need/want a pistol (protection, target shooting), rifle (hunting, pest control, target shooting), or shotgun (pest control, hunting).  What I cannot see is why someone would "need" an assault rifle- or Uzi-type weapon, let alone an M134 minigun(!) - being military-grade weapons, they just "seem not to be sensible", if that makes sense..? It (and this next bit probably needs to be read in the voice of "Ducky" from NCIS in order for the intended humour to work) "all seems a little unnecessary, dear boy".



    I think you might have a false impression that it is easy for your average US citizen to get their hands on fully automatic weapons. To do so, it's VERY time consuming and moreover VERY expensive, and more likely impossible. For guns that fall outside the automatic weapons ban, like say an M60, it will cost you $25,000 for the gun alone. To own a fully automatic weapon that falls under the automatic weapons ban takes a lot of money, access to a class 3 FFL (rare), approval by both state and government, which typically takes up to or longer than a year, and a couple hundred bucks. Once all that is cleared, it's a matter of getting your hands on the weapon itself, which, again, is going to cost you in the range of $5-50k.
     
    All of that is assuming you are even allowed to own a automatic firearm in the state you reside in...many states have outlawed ownership of them.
     
    I would hazard a guess that 99.99% of all personally owned weapons in the US are semi-automatic pistols, rifles and shotguns. It's rare to find people that personally own automatic weapons legally.
    post edited by srtie4k - 2014/08/28 12:33:57

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    #29
    kougar
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    Re: Child firing Uzi at Arizona shooting range accidentally kills instructor, police say 2014/08/28 12:47:50 (permalink)
    A child has no business firing an SMG or an assault weapon. Teaching them about gun safety or letting them fire a .22 rifle is fine, but giving them a SMG to actually fire? Utterly reckless, a kid doesn't understand the physics or have the muscle strength to deal with it and has no business handling such weapons regardless. Plenty of videos of adults that can't even properly handle the recoil on high-powered weapons.


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    #30
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