Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 10:59:40
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I agree there Tex.. Im just pointing out that we had the ability to win - just that we had no willingness to do it because of prior contests and the run up to the contest (dragged out discussions)..ie team spirit we need to luv to do it no matter if we lose Olympians compete - even knowing they will lose ask the first women in Nascar or NHRA ..if they said "I won't compete - Im gonna lose anyways" ask the first Jamaican bob-sledding team anyways Im hoping I can get the teams in the captains forum this week PS: punchy if we drop chimp names - conversion is gone
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/12 11:01:55
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 11:10:18
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Xavier Zepherious
we need to luv to do it no matter if we lose
If that is all you got from my input, then good luck on that contest design. I'm not feeling that "luv" for the contest and am always willing to compete fairly for either fun or for an overall objective. CC holds none of those things for me.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 11:11:15
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texinga
Xavier Zepherious
Had we shown up last year we could have won - 40% conversion (what's this - poor showing?) - if we had 60% would would have been in 2 or 3rd
Given one of the oft-mentioned concerns about having to switch over to the Chimp names (here and on other teams), maybe some of the conversion results are indicative of people not wanting to switch their User name. If we do have real problems with CC, then we can't wish it would be better each year. We have to make it better by understanding what the issues are, and addressing those issues so that more people will want to participate. I know that I'm really "preaching to the choir" here, so I'm just sharing thoughts. Poor conversion could also be an indicator of people in general not feeling the interest or compelling reason to participate.
Not getting mushy here... But these two posts are exactly what I have been trying to say. May I add... There are at LEAST 50+ members that got frustrated with "When does this start" and "Are we going to participate". Those two items are counter productive. We need to know when and if at least 30 days in advance in order to get this info to all our members. Here is my proof. Look back at how many "Unique" members have posted in this thread compared to the thousands of participants we have had over the years. Not everyone comes to the forums daily or weekly, or heck monthly! I know of one member that "Thinks" they do once a month, but it is usually once a QTR to claim his EVGA Bucks... Another example.. Out current contest. It was announced well in advance. Look at the success is is having! Breaking records and without the QRB we are looking for. Think about that  There is no doubt in my mind that this is one of the most diverse and determined teams in the World. All I want to do is focus on that by helping Humanity through growing our F@H and Crunching efforts...
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 11:15:09
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Of course I know that conversion doesn't exist if chimp names don't exist. If you would care to post a clear, concise summary of the current proposal(s), preferably formatted with capitalization and punctuation  , maybe other people can get up to speed on what the current status is.
post edited by Punchy - 2013/03/12 11:59:25
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sbinh
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 12:09:04
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You guys focus too much on "WINNING" the CC. With or without the CC, we all still fold ( as hard as we can afford) right? We all focus on only one (1) thing when folding: FINDING THE CURE. So, with the CC, if you could NOT fold harder, at least you can PUSH others - who "willing to die" for wining the CC - to fold harder and /or to recruite/ attract more folders. End result: we - the folders and SF - are winners. It is just like the timezone contest that you have. Let put "CC champion title and any other craps" aside and think of the big picture. Sorry if I offend anyone of you. ;) Happy folding.
post edited by sbinh - 2013/03/12 12:10:37
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 12:36:15
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sbinh
You guys focus too much on "WINNING" the CC.
Let put "CC champion title and any other craps" aside and think of the big picture.
Sorry if I offend anyone of you. ;)
Happy folding.
Wow what an original thought...we should be focused on the "big picture". Nobody here, even after years of Folding ever had that unique realization. What freedom!!  You must not have read any of the outside-the-box ideas we have shared in this thread to make CC better. Advice on how we should see CC coming from within a team [H] where there is no participation in CC design feels pretty hollow though. 
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 12:47:00
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Tex I read all of your post "If we do have real problems with CC, then we can't wish it would be better each year. We have to make it better by understanding what the issues are, and addressing those issues so that more people will want to participate." We already know the issues Start date - no firm date - April been discussed Why? because just me adak and axipher have chimed in (and we have posted in each team's thread about getting your captains to log into the new capt forum) and axipher is late because OCN had no capt and when they did (Staff only - BWG had to leave and a new one - axipher had to step in) No chimp names - both me and adak have proposed it again (OCN more receptive) formula - 2 only - that have some agreement - last years (with no conversion- with no chimp names) and adaks - which I posted the thread on the Captains forum also has the threads and discussion from all the team forums linked in the captains forum I have posted AB suggestion - but I cannot propose and Dictate what they chose to agree on EVGA is no dictatorship Like I said we don't even have 1/2 the team present again - we have MPC back and at least 1 new team and it's not a lack of trying - I posted a number of times on their forums to get attention So how do you figure we can discuss this without the other teams and force anything on them (like it happened to us)? It's not the lack of trying to get people to talk by me (Adak and axipher have tried as well) adak, axipher and myself cannot work in a vacumn left by the other teams at the current rate -it will be a mad dash to get done like last years
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/12 12:57:34
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 13:07:07
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Xavier Zepherious
Tex I read all of your post
"If we do have real problems with CC, then we can't wish it would be better each year. We have to make it better by understanding what the issues are, and addressing those issues so that more people will want to participate."
We already know the issues
XZ, my quoted comment was in response to your stating that our team basically did it to ourselves by not showing up for CC with only 40% Conversion. What I was trying to get across to you is if we have a "poor showing" (quoting you), then we should know why that happened and address it to help get the attendance higher. You say "we already know the issues". Do we? Do we know "why" we had only 40% participation in CC last year? I'm gonna guess that the rest of your long reply was not necessarily addressed to me because there were some assumptions made that certainly do not reflect what I've been saying about CC. Lastly, XZ it is easy to see that you have been trying, so don't take any of this as somehow being any failure on your part. I was here last year all through the CC design (from a member's perspective). I've seen your attempts at [H] and other Folding Forums to kindle CC 2013 too. So when you read my posts, they are not a criticism of you whatsoever.
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 13:36:10
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the are many reason why turnout was so poor - which is why i left them out We could start off by all the previous years CC - then the bad handicap 2011 - handicap 2012 slow discusions then MM2012 and the spat there Economy warmer months switchin names .... and I Know Im still not getting them all I left them out because I don't want to re-visit issues - like rubbing a sore wound the fact is team turnout has dropped 80 - 60 -40 in the chimp I don't want it to continue we have to decide whether we are in or out and make a pledge to make it work or find a reason to make it work even if we have to define our own goals in doing it to top it off the other team didn't like last years formula - too complex - and they lack interest because of it for this years talk is simpler formula if possible
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/12 13:40:27
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 13:47:10
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sbinh
You guys focus too much on "WINNING" the CC.
With or without the CC, we all still fold ( as hard as we can afford) right? We all focus on only one (1) thing when folding: FINDING THE CURE.
So, with the CC, if you could NOT fold harder, at least you can PUSH others - who "willing to die" for wining the CC - to fold harder and /or to recruite/ attract more folders. End result: we - the folders and SF - are winners.
It is just like the timezone contest that you have.
Let put "CC champion title and any other craps" aside and think of the big picture.
Sorry if I offend anyone of you. ;)
Happy folding.
Actually this was not only mentioned in the very first post of this thread, it has been throughout. Very good part of the topic to keep in focus, thank you. In fact, just four hours ago I did again in this thread, in this post  http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1885746 *Edit Darn I meant to add this as well. If winning should not be a focus, great! Then why the handicapping? I suspect it is because the other teams would like a chance at .... Winning!
post edited by Afterburner - 2013/03/12 13:57:53
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 14:07:33
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Xavier Zepherious
- the fact is team turnout has dropped 80 - 60 -40 in the chimp I don't want it to continue
- we have to decide whether we are in or out and make a pledge to make it work or find a reason to make it work
- even if we have to define our own goals in doing it
Couple of items... - Are you telling us that 80% of all our folders folding in 2010 converted to EVGA apes? And 60% in 2011 and then only 40% in 2012? While I am sure this is just a "Generalization" I am not to sure that we have "Ever" had 80% participation. I have been here folding sense 2009 and cannot ever remember that high of a participation in any event... Now if this is close to reality...Well... That says pretty much everything if that is true! Folks like to achieve and or win. When that is removed, how is it any different than what we already do on a daily basis? And I would think with a team of our size, getting 50%+ to switch over is exceptional...
- The comment on Deciding, is the exact spirit of this thread
- Ditto...
Keep up the good work and know this thread is the free zone for all our thoughts and have no reflection on any one person...
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 14:30:55
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Zodac gave me numbers - stats from previous chimps 80 might be high ...77 or 78% but it's the general trend (in the 70's) 57% (2011) was a drop from the year before (lots felt formula was rigged) about 40% (2012) another drop (and a lot was due to late agreement) - I think the number was slightly under - like 39% it's not Like OCN who got 88% conversion in 2011 so participation has been suffering - and it's due to the stigma of the handicap mostly some people won't play if they feel it's rigged so to speak now to say they all switched or we had more people join EVGA so dropping conversion with new influx outside the CC is another matter conversion is CC PPD/ over Team PPD so if team PPD grows faster - then conversion drops Im more apt to say a lot of people just didn't get the message and some left because of the rules Im just hoping that the Chimp names are dropped OCN still trying to figure out signup for "not using chimp names" and collecting stats on individuals I think we collect team totals only if they want to have a signup for those who earn an internal badge that's fine I feel if the team win the jaded monkey the whole team gets it
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/12 14:53:41
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tank1023
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 15:06:27
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AB I think that wasn't conversion of the 12k+ members but % of current active folders. I believe that was probably close, the CC, is what got me into folding in 2009 as yo can see I'm still here.
IMO we should participate IF the rules do not look like they are giving us no chance to win. IF that occurs I think we pull out and run our own contest during that time frame. I'm sure we could put one on that will spark some new recruit interest.
The bottom line for me is that I will do what the team wants. I fold for EVGA and I will support our decision in the long run.
Ps...I didn't read the previous pages so if I copied someone, sorry
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Mike_Knight
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 15:45:44
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I don't know allot about the CC, and i have never participated with any team. I am new to EVGA. If us being to big is such and issue. Can the other teams be made into one team for the CC to make them even with us??
 ASUS ROG Maximus V Gene, i7 3770K @ 4.6 Ghz, 8GB GSkill Trident X 2400Mhz, EVGA GTX 680 SC
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 16:52:26
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it would take probably OCN,OCF and maybe TSC to be evenly matched
40M PPD(EVGA) - OCN(16)-OCF (12), TSC (8) -total 38M
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 16:54:53
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2011 was my first CC. I remember it as pretty electric with activity and with issues surrounding our not being included in the contest design. I never knew what our participation level was, but I'd of guessed it to have been fairly high that year. I came into it much like Mike above, didn't know what it was all about, but it sounded like something I wanted to do.
Then 2012 rolled around and well, we've already discussed what happened in 2012. Now looking at 2013, I don't have the zest to just play-along this year (like we already did in 2011 and 2012), and I won't belabor that either. Being asked to "keep the faith" for another round of CC just isn't working for me this year, but I'll be Folding anyway so no biggie.
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 18:11:54
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I believe "conversion" is defined as the percent of a team's points that are coming from the chimp user name. Quite honestly I am fed up enough with this that I don't care to look it up. texinga
..., but I'll be Folding anyway so no biggie.
And this brings up a very interesting point: folks that choose not to participate (if chimp names are used) will help the team by stopping folding because the conversion % will go up, or hurt the team by continuing to fold because the conversion % will go down. Now, what good is a scoring category whereby a team's score can be improved by having people stop folding? That yardstick should be used to look at any and all scoring ideas (if we REALLY have to have scores). If a particular idea rewards STOPPING folding, it should be immediately discarded.
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 19:05:05
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Punchy
I believe "conversion" is defined as the percent of a team's points that are coming from the chimp user name
that's what CC PPD/ TEAM PPD is this decimal value 0-1 (or 0-100%) It's nice you described it in more eliquent terms rather than some mechanical calculations.... LOL I'll have to remember describing more like you did in the future Punchy
Now, what good is a scoring category whereby a team's score can be improved by having people stop folding?
That yardstick should be used to look at any and all scoring ideas (if we REALLY have to have scores). If a particular idea rewards STOPPING folding, it should be immediately discarded.
I can't agree more - hence the reason Im pushing to eliminate CC names Even tho Conversion played a minor role it was still a penalty to teams that couldn't deliver points (double whammy)
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TheWolf
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 19:58:52
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I been in a lot of different contest over the years, but never any where you got penalized for doing better. Actually most contest gave you a bonus for doing better. This is what this contest and Folding madness needs. Something that will encourage everyone to do more. Perhaps with the CC there should be a estameted PPD for say the past 3 months back for each team that enters. Set this as a normal every day PPD value for that team, then add a bonus for anything over that value. This way no one has to change there name its a team build thing were you try to get new folders into folding and also get the old members folding more. What ever team improves the most in out put will of course win and so all wins in this fight to beat diseases. I can't understand why these have to be so complicated to were the common man has no clue as what's going on. I think all these rules and not being able to understand them drives a lot of people away. I'm pretty much over these after this one is over. Edit: Better yet pick there highest PPD ever over the past 3 months make them have to improve on that. Then if you want penalize for under producing and give a bouns for over. Then there's a mixed chance of the winner.
post edited by TheWolf - 2013/03/12 20:12:09
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TheWolf
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/12 20:35:41
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Here's a added idea. Lets take this team's Max PPD ever, lets say that's 40 mil PPD.
Now to make it interesting we will add 5 mil to the 40 mil making it 45 mil.
Do this for each team that joins. Now everyone starts out in the whole.
Gave a penalty for every day they are under that & as they build up to this and over then the bonus kicks in and hopefully makes up for the loss.
Ya ya I see what everyone would say as its been done before teams will recruit other teams to help win.
If they want to stoop that low so be it. They will know they didn't win fair so they hurt no one but there selves. lol
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 05:55:44
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Ha, I just realized that if the Chimp names go away (which I supported last year), I'd be Folding in CC 2013 anyway by default. I'll watch to see if it gets better or transitions the design problems from years past. If it does stay basically the same, then I can always Crunch that week instead. I just have no appetite to participate (willingly or unwillingly) in a contest that is designed the way it has been. I haven't been hearing enough in the way of we know the issues and here's the plan to address them. Asking me to "just love CC" regardless of the contest design rubs me the wrong way too. I don't feel that I have to embrace CC to be a responsible Folder and donor. CC is just a contest that has long since lost it's original purpose. It should either be fixed (no matter how long that takes) or abandoned IMO. My best advice would be...don't allow the April time-frame or the May 10th date to override dealing with a broken contest. Oh and PS: Before someone accuses me of only being focused on "winning"...they don't know me well to make such a categorization. I'm all about participating in contests that are "fun" and that drive great results for Folding. Winning is not the main motivator for me with CC. If we compete fairly and have loads of fun doing it, drive tons of WUs for Folding, celebrate each others accomplishments, that is the "win" for me from any Folding contest that I attend.
post edited by texinga - 2013/03/13 06:02:01
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 06:01:01
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@ Tank... Thank you that makes sense now.
@ Wolf... Great ideas! I believe some of them have been tossed around, maybe not in this thread but another regarding the CC. Glad to see these coming. TO me it is closer to the "Spirit" of the event as it was originally.
@ Mike... Great idea. However if the three teams won, they all get the "Prize" and unless they change their minds on that. It will not happen. Because last year we suggested adding two more races in the contest. And they did not want that. They want one single trophy to one winner.
That said... I reeeeeeeeeally like that idea. I would want to measure each teams spikes and drops during and after the events to see just how many other folks from other teams stop producing for their team and move production over to the event for another team. And that number should be added as the "Watermark" for those combined teams.
Then those three teams gained production vs. our gained production is the race.
DO the same with the other teams in head to heads... But then again.. three winners or so vs. just one...
However I think it would inject the "Spirit" of the event and all teams have a way to get those competitive juices flowing.
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 09:52:05
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Already starting to vote on stuff this week Devdog...if you want your voice heard as well pop in to the New capts forum and have a few words http://forum.axihub.ca/vi...9&t=4&p=17#p17 if you don't have access then read http://www.overclock.net/...sions/80#post_19370076 start date vote on the 15th On the starting date, which do you prefer: April 1st-April 10th, or April 8th to April 18th push is to have it all figured out by this weekend vote on format/formula by 18th Who wants to host stats is also up for discussion? do we want to do it? Ive also got HWC looking into it @wolf - yeah I like max PPD myself - then we take everyone's best output and then the key is improving it Vietnam global team may be joining the contest this year
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/13 10:09:06
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:04:09
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TheWolf
Here's a added idea. Lets take this team's Max PPD ever, lets say that's 40 mil PPD.
Now to make it interesting we will add 5 mil to the 40 mil making it 45 mil.
Do this for each team that joins. Now everyone starts out in the whole.
Gave a penalty for every day they are under that & as they build up to this and over then the bonus kicks in and hopefully makes up for the loss.
Ya ya I see what everyone would say as its been done before teams will recruit other teams to help win.
If they want to stoop that low so be it. They will know they didn't win fair so they hurt no one but there selves. lol
problem with that is 5 mil is more than some of the total production of the other teams if we say percentage over/under then it's strictly growth - which is easier for smaller teams by joining /recruiting far easier for OCAU to get 3M PPD and double output than EVGA to get an additional 40M honestly I like it, but it has issues
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:19:48
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@ tex - if we want to address team spirit issues then Im all for it
make our own goals
1.so many new members - fixed target goal
2. getting visitors teams to come join us - PR for the CC for new teams
it's about getting other teams enthused about the challenge maybe add more teams next year
3. prizes for members that recruit the most members -
using referrals
this would require new signups to refer a recruiter
4. prizes for team spirit
if you have more ideas pop them in Tex
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TheWolf
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:32:58
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Xavier Zepherious
TheWolf
Here's a added idea. Lets take this team's Max PPD ever, lets say that's 40 mil PPD.
Now to make it interesting we will add 5 mil to the 40 mil making it 45 mil.
Do this for each team that joins. Now everyone starts out in the whole.
Gave a penalty for every day they are under that & as they build up to this and over then the bonus kicks in and hopefully makes up for the loss.
Ya ya I see what everyone would say as its been done before teams will recruit other teams to help win.
If they want to stoop that low so be it. They will know they didn't win fair so they hurt no one but there selves. lol
problem with that is 5 mil is more than some of the total production of the other teams
if we say percentage over/under then it's strictly growth - which is easier for smaller teams by joining /recruiting
far easier for OCAU to get 3M PPD and double output than EVGA to get an additional 40M
honestly I like it, but it has issues
The 5 mil was just and example this could be any number. Also I wasn't suggesting that we'd have to double the output. Only to get above that set number before you get any bonus. Lets say its set to 41 mil for every day you don't make the 41 you take away 500k from there points for that day, for those days above 41M you would add 500k to there days total. Make it tuff for the 1st week or so with the 500k loss by 2nd week drop that by half 250k if they still haven't reach the mark but hope the pace has been picked up and above by the 3rd week then the game changes. Just some food for thought. I'm sure there are much smarter poeople here that could work out a simple game plain better than I. Edit: BTW my suggestion was for a month long contest.
post edited by TheWolf - 2013/03/13 10:41:43
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:36:07
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Xavier Zepherious
@ tex - if we want to address team spirit issues then Im all for it
make our own goals
1.so many new members - fixed target goal
2. getting visitors teams to come join us - PR for the CC for new teams
it's about getting other teams enthused about the challenge maybe add more teams next year
3. prizes for members that recruit the most members -
using referrals
this would require new signups to refer a recruiter
4. prizes for team spirit
if you have more ideas pop them in Tex
I think we aren't communicating on the same plane here XZ. I have been speaking to the design of the overall CC contest, not to things that we can craft on our own to "build team spirit" locally. To cut to the chase, my ideas have been along with those that AB has already suggested of re-designing the CC contest to get it back to what it was originally supposed to do for Folding. When I read that you want to have all this wrapped up in a week, that says to me that we are basically going forward with some flavor of last year's contest design. If that is the case, there is no need for me to speak more on this subject, I'll just bow out, let it be and won't attend CC this year. No worries either... do whatever you guys want to do.
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:46:10
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I'm not liking this whole "secret captain's forum" thing. I honestly don't feel like I have a clue what is being discussed. "Last year's formula without conversion or Adak's formula that I linked" isn't really sufficient communication. We can't expect the team to get behind something for a vote by the weekend when we have no idea what might be voted on. It certainly doesn't sound like any dramatic overhaul is being discussed, missing the point of many of the suggestions in this thread. Without widespread backing from the team, any vote at this point is simply going to lead to more disinterest than last year on our team.
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 10:49:11
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Actually we as still looking at format/formula
We are pushing because the other capts are slow to get moving
it seems they only move when deadlines are placed down
no one has a preferred format yet - im still waiting for others to post ideas
if we run last years formula - it would have to be modified under no Chimp names - no conversion
so it's only growth and PPD Im more apt to go 50/50
some teams would probably push for 30% on PPD 70 on growth
like I said only 1 other team chiming ideas other than us is not progress and no one can assume anything at this stage
AB' single goal idea is gonna meet stiff opposition again
kinda hard to bash out a formula when me and adak are the only ones talking
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2013 Open Discussion...
2013/03/13 11:00:58
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Punchy
I'm not liking this whole "secret captain's forum" thing. I honestly don't feel like I have a clue what is being discussed. "Last year's formula without conversion or Adak's formula that I linked" isn't really sufficient communication. We can't expect the team to get behind something for a vote by the weekend when we have no idea what might be voted on. It certainly doesn't sound like any dramatic overhaul is being discussed, missing the point of many of the suggestions in this thread. Without widespread backing from the team, any vote at this point is simply going to lead to more disinterest than last year on our team.
I don't like it either Im the one push for transparancy - open posting rather than closed capts thread (that's when we starting getting progress last year) but this is what some of the other teams want Im posting everything - and believe me the capt forum is pretty empty we just got HWC capts selected - they aren't even signed in yet It be nice if we had feedback from other teams Bucknasty(TPU) came in commented on what nothing here and left - that's because Axipher just got it up - and no one posted anything yet at the time - been stuff posted since but only me and adak talking We still don't have TSC, MPC, or OCAU yet if we use last years formula - then it's based on last year CC numbers meaning we have an advantage of low production numbers far easier for us to win - and the winners from last year have the hardest time to keep it one of the reason I don't like the way it's set up then people can throw production off 1 year to have a chance the next year adak's offering here http://www.overclockers.c...16456&postcount=23 OCN and EVGA has not commented on it yet I was waiting to hear from you guys
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2013/03/13 12:35:57
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