kody7839

The winning teams got money in the past? I thought it was just to promote F@H and get a cool jaded monkey to put in your sig....?

You are correct... I was just making a point.. Most cheat to make $$$... This is about gaining new folders not prizes beyond the sig badge...

I tried to come up with an idea for new members... But the problem is we all fold under EVGA apes right? Not our own? So how could we find a way to measure that... Not to mention anyone could still have one system running under one name and create another... I could not think of (Not to say there is not one of course) a way to track it on an honor system...
 
6 months thing is just a stimulant... Ask for more than you need and get what you need =]... Ask for 4 and get two... ask for six and get three =]...

Tiers will destroy the contest completely.
 
There is no feasible way to measure new folders.

If you ask for ideas and them call them bad, you're not going to get many more ideas.  Brainstorming involves not passing judgement on other people's ideas.
 
@kody, I believe by "no prizes / no money" they are referring to prizes given within teams.  Many if not all of the teams did some sort of prize drawings for their members last year.  As far as "no bucks", I don't know how they could ask EVGA to modify a promotion that's totally unrelated to CC.

Even some of mine will smell like high wind... - there is no offense to AB or anyone else
 
Some are just gonna be bad... the 6 month baseline -
 
ie - is a handicap system - no way around it (some teams do not fold as intensely as others  and may comeout out for odd contests (hence the baseline will be lowballing/sandbagged figure)
 
now if you base it on last years CC and your PEAK OUTPUT
then it be about growing your team and output
 
 Also for anyone who doesn't know what the Chimps Challenge is all about - Last year

Its a bit of friendly competition between all the big folding teams which was originally set up by Maximum PC a few years ago, it brings out the competitiveness between the teams and also generates a bit more awareness to the world about the Folding@Home project.

The challenge is all about producing as many points as we possibly can from our hardware in the quickest possible time starting on a specific date & time. For 2009 & 2010 it was a race to 20,000,000 points and last year we had to collect Chimp Points which will be used to determine the placings as follows: The total points of each team is taken from the months of October 2010 to February 2011. One-tenth of a percent (0.1%) of the respective team's 5-month total will be the points required to earn one (1) Chimp Point. The team with the most Chimp Points earned at the end of the 10 days will be declared the winner.

Its great fun pushing your hardware to its limits and rushing round to your Nans house to install FAH client on her Pentium 4 just for those extra couple hundred PPD, people have also looked into folding on their toaster lol, plus having some friendly competitive banter between teams is always a laugh and most importantly it gives a great bonus towards the main point of all this - the science and its benefits for curing world diseases! 

What is the benefit to counting work units?
 
Anything based on any form of monthly production creates conflicting incentives.  Will people act on it?  Probably not en mass, but it should be structured in a way that encourages rather than discourages folding.  (Also, there are a myriad of other issues surrounding basing it on monthly folding).

Lets put a little thought into this please...
 
If we already have a handicap mechanism, how does counting work units improve that?
 
No idea with what you're getting at in regard to HPCS and how it is related.

Punchy

If you ask for ideas and them call them bad, you're not going to get many more ideas.  Brainstorming involves not passing judgement on other people's ideas.

@kody, I believe by "no prizes / no money" they are referring to prizes given within teams.  Many if not all of the teams did some sort of prize drawings for their members last year.  As far as "no bucks", I don't know how they could ask EVGA to modify a promotion that's totally unrelated to CC.

Afterburner

kody7839

The winning teams got money in the past? I thought it was just to promote F@H and get a cool jaded monkey to put in your sig....?

You are correct... I was just making a point.. Most cheat to make $$$... This is about gaining new folders not prizes beyond the sig badge...

Ahhh...I see.
 
Thanks for clearing that up guys. 
 
I don't think the discussions between Captains should be about this part of the contest yet, there are bigger matters at hand. If teams want to do drawings/prizes privately within their own communities I really don't see how that will effect what Captains come up with to fix what is wrong with the CC. 
 
As for my input/idea...I've had a idea that came to me last year. It's hard to handicap since the teams are spread so far apart in total output and police for foul play. 
 
I suggest that we devise a drag race bracket race style of Challenge. By that I mean the captains come with a numbers that each team must meet that is both challenge and fair bases on the teams historic output. For an example lets say we use 200,000,000 for EVGA. The Captain then declares the time it will take his team to reach that number. So lets so we look at our current 24 hour average of 22,407,105 and say with our increased output we should be able to reach that number 8 days (200,000,000/22,407,105 = 8.9257, so the added output will make up that .9257 day). This will be our "Dial In". Now the idea is that we come as close to 8 days WITHOUT finishing before. If we finish in 7.5 days, we "Break Out" and automatically lose.  After each team reaches their predetermined goal, the team that got closet to their dial in without breaking out wins. 
 
Where the challenge comes in is selecting a "Dial in" that is over what the team currently produces but not so much that teams will want to add an unfair amount of folders that will cause them to finish too soon. 
 
The idea has been used with great success in Drag Racing for years. It allows for any type of car to compete competitively in that sport so I would think it meld very well with the problem we face in team sizes/output. 
 

kody7839

Ahhh...I see.

Thanks for clearing that up guys. 

I don't think the discussions between Captains should be about this part of the contest yet, there are bigger matters at hand. If teams want to do drawings/prizes privately within their own communities I really don't see how that will effect what Captains come up with to fix what is wrong with the CC. 

As for my input/idea...I've had a idea that came to me last year. It's hard to handicap since the teams are spread so far apart in total output and police for foul play. 

I suggest that we devise a drag race bracket race style of Challenge. By that I mean the captains come with a numbers that each team must meet that is both challenge and fair bases on the teams historic output. For an example lets say we use 200,000,000 for EVGA. The Captain then declares the time it will take his team to reach that number. So lets so we look at our current 24 hour average of 22,407,105 and say with our increased output we should be able to reach that number 8 days (200,000,000/22,407,105 = 8.9257, so the added output will make up that .9257 day). This will be our "Dial In". Now the idea is that we come as close to 8 days WITHOUT finishing before. If we finish in 7.5 days, we "Break Out" and automatically lose.  After each team reaches their predetermined goal, the team that got closet to their dial in without breaking out wins. 

Where the challenge comes in is selecting a "Dial in" that is over what the team currently produces but not so much that teams will want to add an unfair amount of folders that will cause them to finish too soon. 

The idea has been used with great success in Drag Racing for years. It allows for any type of car to compete competitively in that sport so I would think it meld very well with the problem we face in team sizes/output. 

I like it!

troy8d

Anything format that discourages folding is bad imo.

 
In what way does it discourage folding?
 
For the record, I'm not saying the idea is perfect, but concessions will have to be made if you want small and large teams to compete in the same competition and still make it....well....a competition. 
 
People don't want a flat out points race - understandable, favors larger teams.
People don't want hadicaps/points that give teams that scalp other members an unfair advantage - again, understandable because it now favors smaller teams.  
The idea is you want teams to fold more during this Challenge and ideally bring in new folders, not reposition old ones. You would not be asking teams to steady the course...the dial ins would be a number that a team would have to work hard to meet, not just coast. 
 

troy8d

If you fold too much, you are punished severely.  How does that not discourage folding?

When I look at what you propose, what I see is the same handicapped system where the handicap is hidden a bit more cleverly.  The part I take issue with is potentially punishing too much folding. 

A drag race you do not have sufficient time to perceive that you will be under your reported time, nevermind be able to react and correct it.  This provides a strong incentive to make an accurate time estimate there.  Folding over the course of 8-10 days, however, provides ample time to react and adjust.  Ultimately your incentive is to suggest a time you can easily meet, then tweak your PPD to match it as closely as possible. 

EDIT: This could, however, be a very interesting concept over a much shorter period (i.e. 1 or 2 days).

 
I was merely throwing out an idea/concept...of course it would have to be fine tuned to meet this type of an event. 
 
Maybe we can work with the 1-2 day idea. Make the Chimp Challenge a series of short head to head matches up in which certain days two teams go head to head against their dial ins. Then say after 21 days who ever has the best record wins. Think of it like a Fantasy Baseball type of Challenge... That way every team is kinda of paired up and it could even allow for a playoff if needed due to tied records.
 
I'm trying to think outside the box here because when you have a team that puts out more in one day than it's competitor does in a whole week, it's never going to be 100% legit. 
 
Anyone else have any input? 

troy8d

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.  I just don't know if its right for the Chimp Challenge (but if someone can frame it in a contest that works for the CC lets do it).  If not, at some point in the future I may "borrow" it for an in-house contest. 

 
Sounds good to me 

I have an idea for CC points calculation. This might take a bit long, so bare with me. 
1) There will be no ID changing to EVGApes, OCNChimpin, etc. The actual teams will be competing.
2) For team, say A, take its average PPD in the last 6 months, call it PPD_A.
3) Each team will "race" for, say, 30 days, and their actual PPD for this duration will be calculated, call this APPD_A.
4) At the end of the race, the CC points for Team A will be calculated as
CCP_A = (APPD_A / PPD_A)^3 * APPD_A. 
In plain English, the multiplier, (APPD_A / PPD_A)^3, measures how well the team did with respect to their average PPD and the more they overdo themselves, the greater the effect. 
Why cube? It is to strengthen this effect.
APPD_A is there to reflect the raw performance of the team.
In summary, for small teams, it would be easier to have much higher multipliers, although the raw performance may still be small. For large teams, it would be much difficult to get higher multipliers, although the raw PPD may look large.
Let's do an example.
Say team A has PPD_A = 5Mil, they did APPD_A = 10mil. Their CCP_A = (10/5)^3 * 10 = 80.
Say team B has PPD_B = 20Mil, and they did APPD_B = 28Mil. Then, CCP_B = (28/20)^3 * 28 = 76.832.
As you see, the small team wins.
 
I believe this calculation, or some modification of it, has a great chance of making CC a fair competition giving the winning opportunity to all teams. If possible, I ask someone to show this idea to the other CC captains, and even the teams who don't participate in the CC.
 

Holy carp, I have a lot of catching up to do.  I love the ideas, folks!  The flow is good, and I see some really creative ideas flying about!  This is exactly what I had hoped to see.
 
Work is kicking my head in, still . . . Turns out we went from one major project into another without picking up the people we needed to bring our staff up to full. So, it's still straight out while trying to dig ourselves out from the previous mess.
 
Otherwise, however, things are good.  I hope to catch up fully with the CC Happenings both here and on the Captain's forum and work with XZ to get some regular summaries going back and forth from the other captains to the team here, and vice versa. 
 
The information must flow!!!

I've taken note of it...It's not whether we find that we like it.
it's about convincing the other teams ..who have their own ideas too
(maybe they come up with something we like as well)
 
I mentioned getting rid of folding under the APES before...so I was partial to it as well
 
same goes for ALL posting...We will take ideas to them
(currently only half of the teams have checked in to the CC Captains page)