Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/22 20:17:13
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I think it's still repercussions from our last contest reverberating
everyone loses sight of the target..not being #1 but doing the right things - if we do that right #1 comes along with the ride
everybody just has to quit poking fingers or shakin the boat
don't give up yet devdog
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/22 20:26:05
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theGryphon
Yeah, yeah, yeah... What I did was garbage and you know all about statistics, which shows from your elaborate explanations like "meaningless", "tricks", etc.
By the way, I put my time and effort to be of some service. Ask yourself, what have you been doing other than trying to discredit me?
I want you to remember all the times you worked on those internal competitions, spending your time and effort, and all those people complaining non-stop and trying to find faults. I had felt for you and got pissed at those people. Irony is that you're the worst. You deserved it all...
I will ignore your further posts, so you may as well save your breath.
To all: I posted a few more things but I'm really out of this, and I'll be soon out of Team EVGA. I'm on a business trip now, and I'll do the switch when I get back.
It was never my intention to discredit you - simply to point out the flaws in the stamina proposal. For someone with your background, I assumed that asserting random noise is the primary driver is explanation enough and that you could easily extrapolate from there. I apologize if you are offended by this or the manner in which I presented it. It is not something that should be taken personally...its just numbers. Sorry to see you leave, but wish you the best of luck in your future ventures.
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 06:33:59
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All right, enough. Troy whatever your intentions were it doesnt matter anymore. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think this can be a lesson to everyone that you need to really watch what you say on here. We are not in the same room, so we cannot see each other's body language, mannerisms, we can not hear the inflections in each others voices or see each other's facial expressions. In my experience, the more of a professional you think you are, the more insulted you are when someone challenges your knowledge or credentials. But anyway, the show must go on. Now this is what I want to see over the next 24 hours. Which format of Gryphon's that he proposed do you want to use? IF you have an argument, then you better have your own formula to support that argument or your argument is invalid and will be ignored. Petty bickering is, as of this point, not tolerable. We have put too much time and effort into this to let someone ruin our efforts. I will ask the moderators to step in if necessary. I will not sit here and watch anyone else derail this conversation. So the question is again, which formula of Gryphon's do you support? YES or NO
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 14:37:31
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Well, from what I've seen it would seem that the system in Post #671 is the last best choice. Gryphon made an alteration to that system a few posts later (which was received with "I like" and "looks good" responses), but he found a flaw in it afterwards. So according to him, the system in post #671 was the fall-back position. http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1556821 I won't even try to defend/argue for a better system because I don't understand all the math behind it anyway. Just give me the "high-level" description of these things and I'm good to go. We have made a great effort at this thing with a lot of brain-power, so I'd be OK with using #671 as-is. If there are significant issues with it (that we discover during the contest), then we tweak next year. Browsing the other CC Team forums, the majority of people just want to get going whether the system is perfect or not. My 2-cents, divided by 2048, with "pie being round and cornbread are square"  Edit: Forgot to add a message to Gryphon. Dude don't be too concerned about "fitting-in". It is a hard thing to gauge in this forum and well, in many forums. I would encourage you to stay with Team EVGA...going off to a lone team may be "peaceful", but I expect it could also get lonely. At least here, we are all together and usually pulling together too. Come Crunch with us as well if you are seeking a place to have fun solving diseases and the Team atmosphere is quite pleasant there. Hope you decide to stay on with us.
post edited by texinga - 2012/04/23 14:50:28
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 15:59:51
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Gryphon asked me to elaborate on what I feel are the shortcomings with the current proposed measure of stamina and whether it is driven purely by random noise (and hence a meaningless measure) or susceptible to random noise (might have some small deviations but remains quite useful). Upon further reflection I believe its ultimate value depends on your perception of how the CC will play out. Even in the best case scenario for the stamina measure (people quitting the CC as we saw last year), however, it remains significantly driven by random noise for the 5 teams that kept folding to the end. This is in regard to the stamina formula found in post 672:
I certainly see your point and it is valid if we expect this year's CC to play out similar to last year's. I believe, however, that that is where we truly differ. I think the decline is last year was primarily due to how ridiculously poorly the contest was set up and teams essentially gave up hope long before it was over because literally they had no chance and really nothing to compete for. If we expect that to happen again, then yes - stamina becomes a relevant measure. If, however, we expect that was an aberration, then stamina is driven primarily by the random noise. I know I pointed this out somewhere in a post or two - which may or may not have been directly related to stamina, but its easy to get lost in the frenzy of this thread.
Obviously, you subscribe to the former and I to the later of the potential explanations. But, I also see that even for team's that didn't drop off 4 out of the top 5 places where determined by the random noise. Ignoring ChimpPowerUp as an outlier, there is no significant drop off of among the other top 4 teams - yet they are ranked 2 through 5 based on the random noise of their daily output. I think the impact this has on the results is far too significant on their ranking to be considered valid.
With this in mind, I would say that stamina is both driven by and susceptible to random noise. For teams 2 through 5 the random noise is the primary driver, however, teams 6-9 the decline is the primary driver and it is merely susceptible to the random noise.
In summary, I believe too much of the variability was left to the random noise even last year. If we succeed in coming up with a format that encourages all teams to fold til the end the category will be entirely determined randomly. Finally, I once again apologize to the team as well as Gryphon if I have been a distraction to this discussion by not elaborating on my posts more fully. While that is a reflection of the lack of free time I have at the moment, that is not a valid excuse.
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 16:06:52
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If we never forgave troy we would harbor a lot of bad feelings in this world. I understand your concern about stamina and I think Zodac sees that as well. Basically if we can work out something that isnt so random for next year then that is when it will be implemented. I say the major push for next year need to be to get rid of CC names since we failed this year. This is what she has up for a vote on the captains forum:
Here is the format that is being proposed:
1) CC Names will be used again this year.
2) It will run for 10 days (open to debate).
3) Points system:
• There will be three categories - Points, Growth and Conversion:
Points are the # of millions each team produces (120,000,000 is 120 points).
Growth is based off of last year's CC production (essentially, the handicap system we used last year).
Conversion is the amount of points made by the team by their CC user (so monkey_bollocks points/OCAU points*100).
• Each category will be "normalised" as follows:
Example numbers
Team A - 120
Team B - 84
Team C - 47
Team D - 103
We take the range (max-min, which = 73). We then use this formula = (points*100/range).
So the scores become:
Team A - 164.4
Team B - 115.1
Team C - 64.4
Team D - 141.1
Finally, we subtract the lowest score (64.4) from all teams, to bring the points into a 0-100 range (0 for lowest team, 100 for highest team):
Team A = 100
Team B = 50.7
Team C = 0
Team D = 76.7
• We add up the totals for each category, and the team with the most points across all three categories wins.
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 16:37:11
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Once again I am going to advocate for a simpler point distribution. This will mainly effect the total points category and therefore primarily benefits EVGA and OCN. Its bad form to support a system that favors us as it is essentially a system we created. I say  to the point distribution proposed above. EVGA should not be unduly rewarded because they can blow away a bunch of the smaller teams in total points. I see no reason to deviate from: - 90 points
- 80 points
- 70 points
- 60 points
- 50 points
- 40 points
- 30 points
- 20 points
- 10 points
Also: it is ridiculous to use number of millions we can use actual points instead. We're not doing back of the envelope calculations here, I think we can handle the actual numbers...
post edited by troy8d - 2012/04/23 17:18:35
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 16:46:53
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why bother with multiplying by 10 9 to 1 would have been fine and just as simple (no of teams -> 1) and heck I don't mind ties when we deal with absolute numbers ps: this was just a thought.... you can however add my OK with the formula...it's not perfect but we need something that might fly and use for now Im with troy...it could have been tweaked a bit more - I don't want EVGA to have any advantage here
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/23 16:55:11
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 16:58:24
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Troy, I'm confused by your last post. First you propose a system from 90-10 points (same as my original proposal from many weeks ago, just with an added factor of 10) and say you see no reason to deviate from it; later you say thumbs down to "the point distribution proposed here". So you are proposing it and then giving your own proposal a thumbs down?
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 17:17:47
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Punchy
Troy, I'm confused by your last post. First you propose a system from 90-10 points (same as my original proposal from many weeks ago, just with an added factor of 10) and say you see no reason to deviate from it; later you say thumbs down to "the point distribution proposed here". So you are proposing it and then giving your own proposal a thumbs down?
Was referring to the one in devdog's post. Will edit my post to reflect that.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 17:37:02
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I wanted to say that I have no hard feelings toward anyone, and I apologize to all if I caused a negative environment.
Good luck with CC, not that you need it :)
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 18:04:21
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I'll "third" the 90-10 (or 9-1) points per category scheme, for a few reasons: - it's simple (the KISS principle)
- it keeps placings close and holds interest to the end
- I looked at geomean in some boundary conditions and it did weird things
Zodac was lukewarm to the idea but I think we can get him onboard.
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csm725OCN
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/23 20:53:15
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At this stage I'm tired of the back and forth. Just settle on something, it's way too long of sitting here and debating over who can have "the last laugh". We've been sitting here the last week or so arguing when during that time nothing new has been thought of, and that week could have been spent finalizing details. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Right now, whatever the heck you guys wanna decide do, even if it involves the amount of times the tooth fairy visits zodac, is fine with me.
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 02:28:11
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Is there anyone on here who would be willing to help me work on the CC 2012 website? Im using a site generator, wix.com I have kind of the basics thrown up but I really need to get on this if Im going to have it done in time. I will need help with updates during the CC, and I would like some help with the creation of the site, as well. Just a little caveat. By the way, I posted the suggested changes to the captains forum, Punchy, Troy, Xavier. I should hear something today about it.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 04:52:40
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devdog51
Is there anyone on here who would be willing to help me work on the CC 2012 website?
Is that a website just for the EVGApes or an overall CC website? I know that Chrisk over at HWC has been in contact with their web-guy on the overall CC website with points tracking, etc. http://www.hardwarecanuck...ead-20.html#post622289
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 05:01:20
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theGryphon
I wanted to say that I have no hard feelings toward anyone, and I apologize to all if I caused a negative environment.
Good luck with CC, not that you need it :)
IMO, you didn't cause anything negative, but did positively help CC 2012 with a system that can be used. So, just remember that... If we could all sit around a table with our favorite beverage, I'd bet all the "stuff" would dissolve pretty fast. The internet just makes things harder which means we all have to work a lot harder to cooperate and communicate effectively. Come on and join us in CC...and take that system you worked on out for a spin! 
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 05:13:02
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csm725OCN
At this stage I'm tired of the back and forth. Just settle on something, it's way too long of sitting here and debating over who can have "the last laugh". We've been sitting here the last week or so arguing when during that time nothing new has been thought of, and that week could have been spent finalizing details. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Right now, whatever the heck you guys wanna decide do, even if it involves the amount of times the tooth fairy visits zodac, is fine with me.
Why is it that you and "the captains" seem to be putting all of the burden for coming up with a "system" on EVGA? If everyone is in a rush, why don't they participate as well, rather than just sitting back and complaining that EVGA is causing the delay? It just seems like a convenient excuse for their own inaction.
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csm725OCN
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 05:19:36
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I don't get why ANOTHER system needs to be created. I don't see the point in trying to come up with a better system than Gryphon's 671. I said a couple days ago that's what I would prefer to have used this year.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 05:33:24
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Let's all bear something in mind here that is important to remember. These guys that are working on the CC system are "volunteers", not paid contest developers. They all have day-jobs, lives, families, etc to attend to just like everyone else. Troy, Gryphon, Punchy and all have only been working on these latest calculations for a very short period of time (what a week or two). I think we can all agree that a suitable time-frame to develop such a system and have the opportunity to model it would have been a couple of months ahead of CC.
So, let's not "bite the hands" that are actually willing to help develop this stuff. If they are seeing something that still needs to be tweaked, I'm actually OK with that and willing to be patient. Whether CC starts on May 5th, 10th, 15th or 30th is not that big of a deal in the scheme of things. I say we chill and give these guys a chance...they are excellent contest developers and we are fortunate to have them.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 06:39:22
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Punchy
csm725OCN
At this stage I'm tired of the back and forth. Just settle on something, it's way too long of sitting here and debating over who can have "the last laugh". We've been sitting here the last week or so arguing when during that time nothing new has been thought of, and that week could have been spent finalizing details. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Right now, whatever the heck you guys wanna decide do, even if it involves the amount of times the tooth fairy visits zodac, is fine with me.
Why is it that you and "the captains" seem to be putting all of the burden for coming up with a "system" on EVGA? If everyone is in a rush, why don't they participate as well, rather than just sitting back and complaining that EVGA is causing the delay? It just seems like a convenient excuse for their own inaction.
Not to mention we for MONTHS tried to spur this conversation only to be met with little movement all the way to silence. Proof is in the "Captains" thread and this one as our Captains kept us up to date... We are finally knee deep in this conversation because folks from other forums are offering their thoughts as well. This is "Very good" for the cause. Let's not look at it any other way. Friction happens as we find the best solution, even if it ends up to just be temporary...
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zodac
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 08:14:25
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Punchy
I'll "third" the 90-10 (or 9-1) points per category scheme, for a few reasons:
- it's simple (the KISS principle)
- it keeps placings close and holds interest to the end
- I looked at geomean in some boundary conditions and it did weird things
Zodac was lukewarm to the idea but I think we can get him onboard.
Well... I dunno if the KISS principle applies here, does it? I think the past few years have shown that simple doesn't always get fair results. :P Anyway, I don't really have major objections to this format (yes, I think it bunches things up, but that's a good thing as well as bad). But we set the final date for agreeing on a system as this Friday - we've already got a few teams onboard with the #671 format (OCN, OCAU and HWC are all happy to use it). I think we can spend this week making sure all the teams understand that format, rather than trying to tweak another one and get it done by then too. However, if Evga feels strongly about it, we could try and rush it. ;)
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 09:21:01
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I think the majority are chomping at the bit to get CC going. Every day that goes by it gets warmer in the upper half of the world...
5th? 10th? 15th? do not think it matters to much. But if we get into June... That might not go over to well for most teams...
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 10:54:04
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texinga
devdog51
Is there anyone on here who would be willing to help me work on the CC 2012 website?
Is that a website just for the EVGApes or an overall CC website? I know that Chrisk over at HWC has been in contact with their web-guy on the overall CC website with points tracking, etc.
http://www.hardwarecanuck...ead-20.html#post622289
This is for the CC points. One of the last things Adak told me was that they wouldnt be running it this year. Maybe he was wrong and Im doing this for nothing?
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zodac
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 11:37:04
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chris was in the CC forum a few days ago - he said he'd contacted their web guys and would be back and let us know if they could make something for this year's event.
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 17:25:01
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A site is easy to do and can be put up in a day. You are putting the horse before the cart - focus on finalizing a contest format so that we actually have a contest.
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 20:14:26
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Alright the vote right now is for Gryphon's original formula with the tweaked scoring system. I voted yes on it. We're still set on May 15th with CC names still being required
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 20:23:59
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devdog51
Alright the vote right now is for Gryphon's original formula with the tweaked scoring system. I voted yes on it. We're still set on May 15th with CC names still being required
Come on man...be a little more descriptive. What are you talking about? Post 785? Or does tweaked scoring mean an unbiased system as suggested in post 786 (which is my original proposal in post 428)? Or something else?
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asus939
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 20:33:39
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/24 21:41:55
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troy8d
devdog51
Alright the vote right now is for Gryphon's original formula with the tweaked scoring system. I voted yes on it. We're still set on May 15th with CC names still being required
Come on man...be a little more descriptive. What are you talking about? Post 785? Or does tweaked scoring mean an unbiased system as suggested in post 786 (which is my original proposal in post 428)? Or something else?
Sorry the tweaked scoring from post 786, with the original formula from #761. I cant remember right now if 761 included stamina so... minus the stamina. Is that a little bit better?
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Punchy
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/25 05:22:44
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(In my opinion, of course, after playing with the formulas) Of the four proposed scoring systems, the min-max system favors smallest teams the most, the geomean favors largest teams the most, the 0-max is in between, and the points-for-placings makes things close but throws in a bit of randomness. If everyone wants to use min-max, that's fine with me, just know what we are getting going into the contest.
post edited by Punchy - 2012/04/25 05:58:25
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