zodac
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 12:16:37
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csm725OCN
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 12:26:28
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 13:55:29
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shdbcamping
This is like "way" too complicated, and like last year we will end up shafted (as I suspect [H] will).
[H] won't get shafted because they stopped participating in CC last year and have said in no uncertain terms they are not doing CC 2012. You are not alone in feeling that it is "complicated" (even across the Teams I have seen that comment several times). But here's the thing. If people say that they want a contest that won't be an EVGA or OCN runaway, then some level of this stuff has to be done. That is pretty universal across the Teams too from people that have attempted to score CC and handle the variables in Teams. But even more than all that, I'd say a large portion of Folders are not too worried about where they fall in the Challenge...they just love CC and want to do it again whether they win or lose the CC. That's pretty uplifting to me. People are working on the multiple categories thing too, but at this point no one method for CC 2012 has been agreed upon...a work in progress. Just be supportive is all I'd ask, because we have people who are just volunteers that are working very hard on CC 2012. They need our help, advice and whatever else we can muster to get through this thing. 
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 14:38:42
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I think a final decision needs to be made in the next few days (no more than 2 or 3) as to whether we are participating in the Chimp Challenge this May. A working contest format should ideally be in place by that time as well. As it is, we would be making hasty preparations and might not be able to be as organized as we would like. Beyond that point, we certainly will be unprepared.
I believe enough ideas have been presented that if the captains want a CC this year it can all be worked out by that time if they put their minds to it. In the end no one is going to get the exact format they want, but as long as it is something reasonable it should be worthwhile.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 16:24:07
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Question... Will the CC start on May 5th regardless or is this part of the discussion of when/if we even have one at all (Not our team but the CC itself?)
If it is going to happen no matter what May 5th 2012, I say we start a post right now announcing the return of CC and to get this party started. In that thread it needs to be clear that we are actively trying to finalize the rules/guidelines but that it will not have anything to do with how we prepare or approach it from a hardware position.
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 16:28:57
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At this point, that would be my vote...but I'm not in the captain's forum.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 17:37:55
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I haven't seen anyone say that CC would start on May 5th regardless of having things ironed out. We are certainly not the only Team that is concerned about how late it has gotten without an agreed upon contest criteria. I think most people are trying not to drive a stake in the ground just yet though.
I've had my concerns, but they have mainly been along the lines of having time to get the word out. I think we can still get the word out in general, but having adequate time for new recruiting may be passed. If it happens on May 5th, and we don't have adequate time to prepare, what do we say about that? Do we just go ahead and participate with the understanding that we couldn't bring as many Folders in as we wanted? I don't have all the answers either and like you guys said, the CC Captains who represent each Team will need to decide what to do. We just need to have our CC Captain representative ready to cast our Team vote and maybe a couple days more will help.
I did read that Zodac felt that our recent idea was the most workable at this time and that sounded promising. It's funny, there is so much recent participation and people floating their ideas right now. It would have been best to have had all this new activity going on about a month ago or earlier. We are still learning about how to prepare for CC and I tell ya, after having immersed myself closer in it, I have a lot of respect and more understanding for those that have been trying to get this done. Everyone isn't perfect, but anyone that would volunteer to be a CC Captain (past and present) has my complete respect for having done it.
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 17:51:17
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csm725OCN
I think it's a mistake giving conversion and growth as much weight as points.
yes considering Growth and Conversion are directly related if you add members you get direct growth and PPD gain so when you give points for growth you are already getting conversion then you add them again under conversion which is why smaller teams get the bang for the buck on a big team member growth wil be a lower percentage of the team size and PPD so growth will be smaller and as a factor of team conversion very small which is why I suggested favoring growth more than conversion pick a large % for growth and a very low for conversion conversion will be count in team PPD and growth anyways - if you get the team out you have PPD and if you don't you have low PPD
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 17:52:32
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At this point, I say we just move forward with whatever teams are willing to participate. It might not be all teams, but a lot of people have put a lot of work into this contest already and some would be better than none. I'm a strong believer in the deadline effect and if we put it off for another six months...we'd be in this same position 3 weeks before the fall date set. As for recruiting new folders, we've got 3 weeks. If we start today, that's about the same time we spent recruiting new folders last year (having started recruiting past and current folders one week earlier). I think we've made sufficient progress in the contest format that there will be some semblance of fairness, though granted it will not be perfect. The random nature of folding in general makes that impossible - but as long as we've got a decent foundation to build on and we continue to improve it - then it is a step in the right direction. In my personal opinion, I say go for it with whatever teams want to come along for the ride!
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 18:01:11
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Xavier Zepherious
csm725OCN
I think it's a mistake giving conversion and growth as much weight as points.
yes considering Growth and Conversion are directly related
if you add members you get direct growth and PPD gain
so when you give points for growth you are already getting conversion
then you add them again under conversion
which is why smaller teams get the bang for the buck
on a big team member growth wil be a lower percentage of the team size and PPD so growth will be smaller
and as a factor of team conversion very small
which is why I suggested favoring growth more than conversion
pick a large % for growth and a very low for conversion
conversion will be count in team PPD and growth anyways - if you get the team out you have PPD and if you don't you have low PPD
There is no reason why categories should not be equally weighted. They are different measures with indirect correlation. If you have growth in conversion then you should have growth in growth, assuming all else equal - which is not a safe assumption in the folding world. Moreover, you can have a growth with a decrease in conversion. So while they are weakly correlated in the second derivative, we can't determine enough about this relationship to come up with anything but a completely arbitrary weighting system. Moreover, if you could determine the relative weightings...then there wouldn't be a need for multiple categories and we could have this all wrapped up in one tidy formula based entirely off a team's points and it would be perfectly balanced with the contest ending in a 9 way tie... 
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 18:03:47
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I'll toss-in my vote and agree with you Troy. There are a couple of compelling reasons I think we should go ahead at this point. One of them is the reason that you shared (all the hard work and effort that has been invested). The second one is having read so many posts across a number of Team's forums that say "they just want to Fold in CC no matter what". Having CC this May would affirm and answer that desire among every-day Folders. I'm ready and willing to help get the word out again or however else I can help and am sure others are too. I'll sit back and see what the rest of the Apes want to do...
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 18:08:41
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Although...it would be amusing to have XZ and Zodac go back and forth on the Captains forum for another 6 months while everyone sits on their hands until the last minute again. (I will plead the fact that I was busy dealing with issues from our March contest as my excuse).
But, I also believe we've got momentum on our side...people are actively engaged in the topic and aware of what is going on. If push comes to shove and it really is too close for some - we can push it back a week rather than 6 months?
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csm725OCN
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 20:32:57
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That may even be optimal since HPCS ends May 10th and that would remove it completely from the CC...
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 21:28:55
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Afterburner
Question... Will the CC start on May 5th regardless or is this part of the discussion of when/if we even have one at all (Not our team but the CC itself?)
If it is going to happen no matter what May 5th 2012, I say we start a post right now announcing the return of CC and to get this party started. In that thread it needs to be clear that we are actively trying to finalize the rules/guidelines but that it will not have anything to do with how we prepare or approach it from a hardware position.
So far its at a deadlock. Adak wants to proceed with the 5th. Zodac feels that if we cant agree on a system within the next week it will need to be pushed back at least a little bit. I tend to agree with this. I told them that we need some kind of decision within the week to really get things organized. leroy from OCAU thought that autumn (their spring) would be cooler than when we have it now but he says that OCAU is ready to accept whatever just to see this get started. I would say lets push for recruitment like its starting on May 5th and be ready for any system. Everyone on the captains forum is in agreement though that sometime around either spring or fall equinox is optimal. Though this is something that we already know.
post edited by devdog51 - 2012/04/16 21:32:22
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 21:36:15
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Alright Gryphon since the CCC is your baby, Im going to pose Adak's questions to you directly:
Interesting:
1) What is the equation for the conversion? Because EVGA folded the most points, but wound up in the conversion column, with about 60% fewer points than OCN. Quite odd.
2) Although the points category is an idea we've kicked around, the general feeling was that it's not useful. We only have two teams that are vying for it, so a simple trophy for the biggest point getter, (a Jaded Monkey but with a different coloration and maybe a scroll on it), has been suggested.
3) Is the conversion category a true handicap to the race? If all three teams improve over last year's race production, but one team improves by 2% more than the other teams, but the teams are all different sizes, will that team win in the conversion category?
If so, isn't that the same as the growth category? If not, who wins in the conversion category and why?
Thanks for your input, btw!
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 22:03:01
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troy8d
Although...it would be amusing to have XZ and Zodac go back and forth on the Captains forum for another 6 months while everyone sits on their hands until the last minute again. (I will plead the fact that I was busy dealing with issues from our March contest as my excuse).
But, I also believe we've got momentum on our side...people are actively engaged in the topic and aware of what is going on. If push comes to shove and it really is too close for some - we can push it back a week rather than 6 months?
I don't think so.... I had already posted a question on whether to accept Zodac anyways that got dead air on this thread I was already at the point that personally Id accept anything just to fold for the right reason for once I am tired of the fighting, both in our own in our last contest and on the CC Adak just removed the deadlock - we had a majority saying something...at least we had some format and plan that's better than just 2 on anything I knew a compromise had to come. Anyways, I do thank everyone including zodac and CSM and everyone on this team for the work they put in Honesty i don't care if this team wins it, as long as it doesn't stink and we wind up in last with a formula that targets the biggest producer It's the fact we put out record numbers, we do the work and push others to come up to a level to compete. and grow the fact we have a contest that gets us together to help with that is great. it should be for the teams to have a fair contest to help motivate them to beat each other (not necessarily us) and if they are fighting for the top spot they all push that's the achievement.... team growth - PR, public awareness now if this works can we stick with it and possibly add more teams next year?
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/16 22:04:59
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 22:28:09
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devdog51
Alright Gryphon since the CCC is your baby, Im going to pose Adak's questions to you directly:
Interesting:
1) What is the equation for the conversion? Because EVGA folded the most points, but wound up in the conversion column, with about 60% fewer points than OCN. Quite odd.
2) Although the points category is an idea we've kicked around, the general feeling was that it's not useful. We only have two teams that are vying for it, so a simple trophy for the biggest point getter, (a Jaded Monkey but with a different coloration and maybe a scroll on it), has been suggested.
3) Is the conversion category a true handicap to the race? If all three teams improve over last year's race production, but one team improves by 2% more than the other teams, but the teams are all different sizes, will that team win in the conversion category?
If so, isn't that the same as the growth category? If not, who wins in the conversion category and why?
Thanks for your input, btw!
To answer those questions: 1) Honestly, I don't know. I directly used the data for conversion provided by zodac. I assume it's the percentage of Chimp points to Team points, as that's the only way it would make sense. 2) I don't know who thinks using Points doesn't make sense, and why, but I disagree. That said, I'm not proposing any categories, but just a way to put them together in a balanced way. That also said, some don't like Points, some don't like Conversion, some thinks Growth is pretty much the same as Conversion... I don't know what you guys want, count the syllables in our last names and decide the winner that way??? If nobody compromises there won't be a CC, a case which I'm fine with btw... 3) I don't know what you mean by "handicap", but Conversion is not the same thing as Growth. Growth is percent increase in Chimp name points compared to previous year's CC. A team can have very good Conversion but can suck in Growth (see for example Beavers_Gone_Bananas in the table I attached in my previous post). Another team may well be the opposite (see for example CustomBit Chimps in the table). My proposal is such that given the categories you (we, whatever) decide on, this is the best way to put them together. This way, for a team to win the CC, they have to do very well in all categories. They don't have to rank the first in any, they just have to "not suck" in any. I think this is great because it would force all teams to do well an all fronts, and not lay back once they believe they're gonna win in one category. To me, all these three categories I included make sense, but I'm not insisting on any category. You wanna count syllables?, so be it.
post edited by theGryphon - 2012/04/16 22:30:01
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/16 22:43:27
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Thanks Gryphon Ill get this posted there asap. Going over your design myself I think it is a better system. Im not the quite the math genius you and punchy and troy are but it seems to work better than last year and right now I think that's all that counts.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 04:38:39
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Since the latest iteration of the suggested measurement criteria includes "Categories", I would surely like to see us have an award (badge) for the Team that places best in a given Category. The Jaded Monkey would still go to the Team that was the overall winner of CC, but I think it would add interest if there was some recognition that CC could offer to Teams that excel in a given Category.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 05:59:36
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texinga
Since the latest iteration of the suggested measurement criteria includes "Categories", I would surely like to see us have an award (badge) for the Team that places best in a given Category. The Jaded Monkey would still go to the Team that was the overall winner of CC, but I think it would add interest if there was some recognition that CC could offer to Teams that excel in a given Category.
I think this is a great idea: This way there is more incentive to push forward.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 06:16:30
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 07:05:01
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Afterburner
The multiple levels/winners is the very similar to what I have suggested for the last two years... Most recently...
http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1450476
http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=999607
And ... http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1472637
And for you specifically Devdog51, on your original thinking about the little guys... http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1473332
Not to mention a LOT of this type of thinking is going on the past few months... Look @ OCAU's
http://forums.evga.com/fb.ashx?m=1487749
Can we just get this ironed out if this type of idea is going to be a part of CC or not? Maybe that will help in the design and "Zero" in on a plan/tactics...
AB, the multiple "category winners" is completely different from multiple "tier winners". Categories are not tiers. They're different performance measures. I think the tier idea is a failure by design because it automatically designates first class and second class citizens. This is totally different from what the categories are trying to achieve: acknowledge performance in different areas and put them together in a way that gives all teams a chance to win the competition. Random drawing thing may be liked by some, it's subjective I suppose. But from a totally objective point of view, it is not nearly a good incentive for teams to participate and try to do their best, compared to recognizing a performance measure that they can be (or, are) good at. The whole point of CC is to increase production and awareness for FAH, right? To do that, you (as a competition organizer) should give all teams an incentive to actually produce more and recruit more. Random drawing can't do that.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 07:16:16
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lol... Wow... Just wow... Tomato Tamoto... I am not saying the are the "Exact" same ideas, just that these "Types" of ideas have been here and tossed away like cooked two day old eggs. And that maybe it is time to "Stop" getting rid of these ideas as it is clear a lot are thinking in that "Type" of direction.
In hopes it will help "Zero" the rest of the energy into a single focus there by resulting in a CC this year.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 07:22:25
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Afterburner
lol... Wow... Just wow... Tomato Tamoto... I am not saying the are the "Exact" same ideas, just that these "Types" of ideas have been here and tossed away like cooked two day old eggs. And that maybe it is time to "Stop" getting rid of these ideas as it is clear a lot are thinking in that "Type" of direction.
In hopes it will help "Zero" the rest of the energy into a single focus there by resulting in a CC this year.
No offense, AB. You said "very similar", and somebody had to point out the differences... They're only similar in the sense that they break the whole in pieces.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 08:11:11
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Its all good...we're basically all on the same wave-link and I knew where you were heading AB. After 18 pages of discussion in this thread alone, it is no wonder that things get a bit buried. 
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 08:28:10
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Whats wrong with something that had a different type of division scale? Something along the lines of what I proposed? I understand this one that were currently debating has fewer moving parts, so to speak, but I would really like to know whats wrong with my idea.
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 08:32:35
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theGryphon
Afterburner
lol... Wow... Just wow... Tomato Tamoto... I am not saying the are the "Exact" same ideas, just that these "Types" of ideas have been here and tossed away like cooked two day old eggs. And that maybe it is time to "Stop" getting rid of these ideas as it is clear a lot are thinking in that "Type" of direction.
In hopes it will help "Zero" the rest of the energy into a single focus there by resulting in a CC this year.
No offense, AB. You said "very similar", and somebody had to point out the differences... They're only similar in the sense that they break the whole in pieces.
That is correct. "Very similar in the sense that there is more than ONE winner/winning position/ETC. 
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 08:33:35
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devdog51
Whats wrong with something that had a different type of division scale? Something along the lines of what I proposed? I understand this one that were currently debating has fewer moving parts, so to speak, but I would really like to know whats wrong with my idea.
What post specifically are you referring to? I would like to re-read it...
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csm725OCN
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/17 08:37:01
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My post got overlooked (no surprise there lol) but I recommend delaying the CC at least to after May 10th, since then HPCS is not a factor and the race can be more fair... we have some people abusing HPCS against even zodac's want for at least 750k PPD and it's not something I want to affect my team's performance...
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