I like it.
Zodac, troy, tex, Adak, whoever the hell else, your thoughts?

zodac

devdog51

zodac

devdog51

What would you think of a multi- division race? Something along the same lines as the Olympics and people have a points standing. Youre awarded points for what pplace you came in at in your division. At the end the team with the most points overall wins and the the top few people with the most points overall get recognized. It wont all be about who can fold the most or who has the most members.

If it was done in the form that each division gave points for ranks (like 10pts for 1st, 8 for 2nd, etc), and you could actually have a single winner in the end, I'm all for it.

But what would be the divisions? I could only think of two - relative points and absolute points, and I tried making a single formula out of it instead. If there were something like 6 divisions, then it would be an attractive event.

But when you consider that # of WUs is a very easily manipulated factor, and that (assuming we continue using the CC name system) you can't get PPD/person, it kinda limits things.

No think bigger outside the box. Not just relative points or absolute points but limitations by hardware, by total number of clients, things like that. It doesnt require a formula or handicaps. It just needs a system. Its flexible and easy and it can deal with changing numbers of folders and teams. 

Restricting by hardware then; so events for i7s only... for 4ps only... for Fermis only, etc?

Exactly, and then my favorite idea have limitations by clients. I know its possible to accurately predict PPD based off of your client. If youre running a 560Ti at 1Ghz with the GPU FAH client 24/7 then youre going to make an average of 20k PPD. My idea is to get small folders like me interested in participating. Thats where youre going to get your promotion. I have a lot of friends who fold who cant get over the 15k or the 20k mark and thinks its a lost cause to join the competitions because youre getting overshadowed. If you broke down the competition to something that showed off production vs hardware/clients then even the small folders would get interested I think, and csm, Im not skipping you I just want to get my thought across.

devdog51

zodac

devdog51

zodac

devdog51

What would you think of a multi- division race? Something along the same lines as the Olympics and people have a points standing. Youre awarded points for what pplace you came in at in your division. At the end the team with the most points overall wins and the the top few people with the most points overall get recognized. It wont all be about who can fold the most or who has the most members.

If it was done in the form that each division gave points for ranks (like 10pts for 1st, 8 for 2nd, etc), and you could actually have a single winner in the end, I'm all for it.

But what would be the divisions? I could only think of two - relative points and absolute points, and I tried making a single formula out of it instead. If there were something like 6 divisions, then it would be an attractive event.

But when you consider that # of WUs is a very easily manipulated factor, and that (assuming we continue using the CC name system) you can't get PPD/person, it kinda limits things.

No think bigger outside the box. Not just relative points or absolute points but limitations by hardware, by total number of clients, things like that. It doesnt require a formula or handicaps. It just needs a system. Its flexible and easy and it can deal with changing numbers of folders and teams. 

Restricting by hardware then; so events for i7s only... for 4ps only... for Fermis only, etc?

Exactly, and then my favorite idea have limitations by clients. I know its possible to accurately predict PPD based off of your client. If youre running a 560Ti at 1Ghz with the GPU FAH client 24/7 then youre going to make an average of 20k PPD. My idea is to get small folders like me interested in participating. Thats where youre going to get your promotion. I have a lot of friends who fold who cant get over the 15k or the 20k mark and thinks its a lost cause to join the competitions because youre getting overshadowed. If you broke down the competition to something that showed off production vs hardware/clients then even the small folders would get interested I think, and csm, Im not skipping you I just want to get my thought across.

But what about older hardware? We'd swing too far the other way, and have dozens of categories for different variations of hardware (an issue we have with our Team Competition on OCN).
 
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csm, what happens in the event where you have two small teams, with 1mil PPD each, competiting against each other. One of those teams doubles its PPD, while the other doesn't. Because one team in a pair isn't performing, the other team actually does very well, while teams with more PPD, who do equal work (let's say a 2.5mil PPD team going up to 5mil PPD), but their partner also does similar. The smaller and bigger teams do the same relative performance, but because one team isn't going all out, the efforts of the other teams isn't worth as much.
 
It's a good basis for a system, but there needs to be some sort of performance relative to the other teams too, to make it a bit fairer.
 
I would have preferred to ignore you though.

zodac
 But what about older hardware? We'd swing too far the other way, and have dozens of categories for different variations of hardware (an issue we have with our Team Competition on OCN).

You have groups of hardware. And anything after a certain age can go into a legacy division. just like with car shows. Hell you can even throw in a division for stock vs OC folding. Like I said, it seems complicated because you have to wrangle with more groups but it cuts out a lot of the mathematics and in the end it is more flexible to changing numbers of teams and folders.

This is kind of an conglomeration of several ideas that have been floating around as well as a few of my own.  Feel free to tear it apart:
 
CCC - Categorized Chimp Challenge


All teams compete in 3 (or more categories).  Suggestion:

• Total points
• Conversion percentage
• Chimp Challenge growth (percentage increase over last year's CC)

• Any other relevant, measurable factor teams value

At the end of the competition, each team places in all categories, and the team with the best overall performance is crowned "King of the Chimps" and receives this year's jaded monkey.  Best overall performance is determined by the highest combined rank in the contest.
 
4 Team Example:
Place    Total Points    Conversion     Growth
1            Team A         Team C        Team B
2            Team C         Team D        Team C
3            Team D         Team B        Team A
4            Team B          Team A       Team D
 
Scoring:
 
Team A wins the Points.
Team C wins the Conversion.
Team B wins Growth.
 
Dispersing Contest Points:
In the points category: Team A is awarded 4 points for finishing first, Team C is awarded 3 points for finishing second, Team D is awarded 2 points for finishing third, Team B is awarded 1 point for finishing fourth.
 
Final Score:
Team A's final score: 4+1+2 = 7
Team B's final score: 1+2+4 = 7
Team C's final score: 3+4+2 = 9
Team D's final score: 2+3+1 = 6
 
Team C wins the overall challenge.
 
Advantages:

• It combines the best of the categories approach with a unifying formula to declare an overall winner
• All teams can compete and win in some category
  • Smaller teams have the advantage in conversion
  • Large teams have the advantage in points
  • All teams have an equal footing in growth
• Team's individual focus can be on their own strengths

Disadvantages:

• There is the possibility of a tie.
  • I would suggest the Growth category as a universal tie-breaker
• "Conversion" category is not compatible with the option to eliminate chimp name

devdog51

Here is Adak's formula for all who want to see:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1239172/chimp-challenge-2012#post_16913151

 
Sigh... that is NOT Adak's formula.  In fact, it is not a formula at all...
 
 
The best information on Adak's proposal can be found here: http://www.overclockers.c...59040&postcount=37

That may work but a major disadvantage is the fact that I get rewarded equally for folding say 50 mil points more than 4th and for converting say 10% more than 4th (numbers are random obviously) - basically the weighting is off.
 
Maybe combine my and troy's suggestions? A relative and absolute bracket?
Obviously the numbers would need to be worked on. 

troy8d

This is kind of an conglomeration of several ideas that have been floating around as well as a few of my own.  Feel free to tear it apart:

CCC - Categorized Chimp Challenge


All teams compete in 3 (or more categories).  Suggestion:

• Total points
• Conversion percentage
• Chimp Challenge growth (percentage increase over last year's CC)

• Any other relevant, measurable factor teams value

At the end of the competition, each team places in all categories, and the team with the best overall performance is crowned "King of the Chimps" and receives this year's jaded monkey.  Best overall performance is determined by the highest combined rank in the contest.

4 Team Example:
Place    Total Points    Conversion     Growth
1            Team A         Team C        Team B
2            Team C         Team D        Team C
3            Team D         Team B        Team A
4            Team B          Team A       Team D

Scoring:

Team A wins the Points.
Team C wins the Conversion.
Team B wins Growth.

Dispersing Contest Points:
In the points category: Team A is awarded 4 points for finishing first, Team C is awarded 3 points for finishing second, Team D is awarded 2 points for finishing third, Team B is awarded 1 point for finishing fourth.

Final Score:
Team A's final score: 4+1+2 = 7
Team B's final score: 1+2+4 = 7
Team C's final score: 3+4+2 = 9
Team D's final score: 2+3+1 = 6

Team C wins the overall challenge.

Advantages:

• It combines the best of the categories approach with a unifying formula to declare an overall winner
• All teams can compete and win in some category
  • Smaller teams have the advantage in conversion
  • Large teams have the advantage in points
  • All teams have an equal footing in growth
• Team's individual focus can be on their own strengths

Disadvantages:

• There is the possibility of a tie.
  • I would suggest the Growth category as a universal tie-breaker
• "Conversion" category is not compatible with the option to eliminate chimp name

 
This works and its even simpler than my idea. It allows for an infinite number of teams and folders. The thought that this has to be uber complicated and and full of math is the thought of a math nerd that is full of themselves. Everything can be simplified if you try. And I really do think that's a selling point that your losing with the current system. People wanna feel smart but when they look at the current formula they feel stupid and they just have to trust the captains that its working. I know its how we elect presidents in the US but it shouldnt be how we run this contest. If you can create a simple system that works and present it to the new folders out there and say "come join our team and make a difference" there might be a better reaction. 

There is still the weighting flaw with troy's system, but the concept is there. If numbers are worked on, and absolute points are factored in a bit more, it could work great.
 
To get rid of the albeit minor tie possibility, we can factor in # of mil pts / 15 or something like that.

*Sigh* this is like herding cats...... Here's the question are we going to implement this for THIS YEARS CC? Or are we going to use an existing idea?

This thread is moving too fast for everyone's thoughts to be accounted for. What was the link to chat again?

Are we having fun yet? 

Will my help be needed with numbers?
Let me know if I'm needed (yeah right), but I like the maths of all this :P

csm725OCN

Will my help be needed with numbers?
Let me know if I'm needed (yeah right), but I like the maths of all this :P

Of course your help is needed and appreciated. The more people that look at a problem, the better a solution can be usually. As long as tempers can stay away.

csm725OCN

Numbers calm me down

logic calms me down, which goes hand in hand with numbers