blkhole
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 08:43:55
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troy8d
It sounds like [H] has not only accepted the challenge, but they have upped the ante. They are not content to beat us one month out of the year - they want to beat us each and every month. Its sounds to me like the race is on...
Funny you say this, I was thinking the same myself; if we're looking for a goal to get spun up on it's right there...
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 09:30:23
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Well, lets run like hell and keep our number 1
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 11:02:22
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☄ Helpful
troy8d
It sounds like [H] has not only accepted the challenge, but they have upped the ante. They are not content to beat us one month out of the year - they want to beat us each and every month. Its sounds to me like the race is on...
+1 That race is the only one that threatens our spot at #1 OVERALL, not just in some contest. Once again, thank you to those who have been staying on top of this and trying to work out a solution for the CC. It seems like other teams are not open to compromise or making decisions at all for that matter. Short of taking a vote with all options available and just going with it, this seems like a lost cause. Personally, I would participate no matter what the rules. Kind of disappointing how this is playing out, the CC last year is what got me back into folding and led me to join team EVGA.
post edited by Opolis - 2012/04/04 13:58:29
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 12:48:25
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We "have our work cut out for us" if we actually want to keep the #1 spot IMO. The March Madness contest helped delay the progress of [H] for a brief period, but now we are back to being out-produced by them (daily). If you follow their Forum at all, you will see that they continue to add 4P rigs at a steady rate. They also just had a "heavy hitter" that joined "Grandpa" if you know him from the FAH and other Folding forums. He brought in excess of 1M/day to the Team and has committed to staying with them until they regain the #1 spot. They have the "iron" to overtake us and the question is whether we have the "will/ability" with our larger number of active users to hold that off. I can certainly understand why they would not be interested in a PPD race with us. They are in that race every day and don't need a contest to help motivate them. In some ways, while their position about CC or other contests may seem hard, they have learned that their Team pulls together better with a lot less drama. I do have to acknowledge that they are rightly focused on simple results without other things that could potentially affect their teamwork. But, they do have intra-team contests like we do for fun and prizes, so they do like to have some fun too. 
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 12:58:16
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Opolis
troy8d
It sounds like [H] has not only accepted the challenge, but they have upped the ante. They are not content to beat us one month out of the year - they want to beat us each and every month. Its sounds to me like the race is on...
+1 That race is the only one that threatens our spot at #1 OVERALL, not just in some contest.
Once again, thank you to those who have been staying on top of this and trying to work out a solution for the CC. It seems like other teams are not open to compromise or making decisions at all for that matter. Short of a taking a vote with all options available and just going with it, this seems like a lost cause. Personally, I would participate no matter what the rules. Kind of disappointing how this is playing out, the CC last year is what got me back into folding and led me to join team EVGA.
Just a comment... If I could give you a hearty handshake and slap on the back I would. We need to hear things like this. And it makes me personally feel I need to support you and am willing to do so. That means I will CC if we as a team are to do the CC and I will do it with you and members who do not speak up but may feel like you do. Thank you!
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 13:17:53
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The thought just occurred to me that "if" the majority of people interested in participating did not give a "rat's patootie" about the points structure, handicaps, winning, etc, then what hindrance is there for EVGA participating in CC 2012? People could stop waiting for Zodac, concensus and all the other stuff that drains the life out of CC and just say "we're doin' it"! I think that is basically the position that I've seen over in the HardwareCanucks team. They don't really seem to be all that caught-up in resolving/getting agreement to CC points design. I think that the "EVGA CC Team" is whomever wants to participate regardless of the unresolved contest issues. Jus' a thought...
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 13:40:43
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texinga
The thought just occurred to me that "if" the majority of people interested in participating did not give a "rat's patootie" about the points structure, handicaps, winning, etc, then what hindrance is there for EVGA participating in CC 2012? People could stop waiting for Zodac, concensus and all the other stuff that drains the life out of CC and just say "we're doin' it"! I think that is basically the position that I've seen over in the HardwareCanucks team. They don't really seem to be all that caught-up in resolving/getting agreement to CC points design. I think that the "EVGA CC Team" is whomever wants to participate regardless of the unresolved contest issues. Jus' a thought...
HA! Now that would be a true challenge for our team...Enter a contest without complaining once about rules/format/points/fairness ect. Could we win? Probably not. 
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 13:51:34
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texinga
The thought just occurred to me that "if" the majority of people interested in participating did not give a "rat's patootie" about the points structure, handicaps, winning, etc, then what hindrance is there for EVGA participating in CC 2012? People could stop waiting for Zodac, concensus and all the other stuff that drains the life out of CC and just say "we're doin' it"! I think that is basically the position that I've seen over in the HardwareCanucks team. They don't really seem to be all that caught-up in resolving/getting agreement to CC points design. I think that the "EVGA CC Team" is whomever wants to participate regardless of the unresolved contest issues. Jus' a thought...
I think in our own way, most have said the same thing. I "personally" stated I would not participate because I felt last year was so badly handled. Let us not forget, they "Told" us last year how it was going to be (I can dig up the links if I need to). This caused a lot of unsettling feelings for many. As a result this year we have the opportunity to have a voice. However, now that I am seeing more comments about not caring about CC. I have decided to participate regardless. That said. One thing needs to be perfectly clear. All "Contests" bring out the contender in most of us. It would have to be perfectly clear that we do not care what the Handicaps are, we plan to go at the CC as it was originally intended to be and that our goal is not the CC Badge, rather the goals we set while running this years CC. Otherwise the damage we experienced last year will happen faster this year because we already experienced it. Kind of like life experiences. Once you know, you protect yourself. Remember how they changed the rules a few days into last years CC and the uproar it caused... So if we do this it, the rules/handicaps, the fact we have a different goal than winning the title, needs to be front and center. Our version of winning needs to be ours, carrying the CC banner while doing it sounds pretty exciting if done right.
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tanner2
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 14:38:59
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Ahh, for me see post # 6 
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blkhole
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 15:58:49
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I'm settings things up to make ~250k stable and (mostly) unmanned and I'll be producing regardless of CC or not; if we're in then I'm in, if not then I'm still producing...
Personally I think that a competition that we go into knowing that we'll lose due to technicalities will not hurt us, but it will not bring out the need to produce our maximum... I see no need to bring on more machines if it won't help us win, but if we were to simply blow the horns of war and say we're going in for the long haul to keep [H] at bay (before we see the whites of their eyes) then I'm actually more inclined to try to do more...
Again, either way I'm in CC if we're doing it, but I'm not sure it will bring any new/more folding to the table..?
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 16:32:07
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Afterburner
One thing needs to be perfectly clear. All "Contests" bring out the contender in most of us. It would have to be perfectly clear that we do not care what the Handicaps are, we plan to go at the CC as it was originally intended to be and that our goal is not the CC Badge, rather the goals we set while running this years CC. Otherwise the damage we experienced last year will happen faster this year because we already experienced it. Kind of like life experiences. Once you know, you protect yourself.
Remember how they changed the rules a few days into last years CC and the uproar it caused...
So if we do this it, the rules/handicaps, the fact we have a different goal than winning the title, needs to be front and center.
Our version of winning needs to be ours, carrying the CC banner while doing it sounds pretty exciting if done right.
Last year was my first CC and I was all excited about "contending". Then all the things that you mention above came out and I admit, it was a significant let down for me. Contending is fun which is one reason why our own intra-team contests are loved by so many members. I went ahead and participated in CC 2011 (to the end) knowing that we had no chance of winning just like most people. But I do have to admit, as Blkhole suggests, that I wasn't compelled to do all-out Folding in that kind of contest. If I simply want to give extra to Stanford, I can do that every day with or without a contest. But a good contest makes Folding all-out a whole lot of fun. So, for me CC feels like a hollow contest if it is anything like last year and at this point I'm not motivated to do it. But, that's just me and others can feel differently and even go on to do CC 2012 which is totally OK by me. So, what I was trying to say (above) is that if the majority of our members really are not bothered about how CC is structured, or if we have any chance of really contending, then what is to stop them from participating and being the EVGA CC entrants? Do we have to have agreement as a Team that we will participate, or be hamstrung by indecision and lack of response by other CC Team Captains? I was just saying...maybe not. Troy, you made me laugh with your response to me above. That was classic and true of this Team!
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 18:36:46
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we'll it's up to you guys do you want in regardless of a formula? Even if the formula is OCN's (rehash of last years) zodac - is currently going to contact Troy8d and see what troy has in mind indications were that people would not enter from the team if the formula and Handicap were similar if you want it regardless... that can be arranged and then there is no whining/complaining about how unfair it is (or try fixing it midstream). Just fold like hell then, even if we run in last place. And we work like hell to get the team out I can just accept Zodac current formula (posted earlier in thread) Zodac: ((Total Points/Handicap)*Conversion) + # of mils Handicap based on best 2 weeks - or mix of 1 week of last year CC and best week (and I still have no indication of handicap assessment/formula) conversion is (CC PPD/team PPD) make a decision guys... currently Im waiting to see what happens with zodac and troy seems my ideas and tweaks to zodacs formula went nowhere then it be about getting the other teams to agree HWC would be easy and so would MPC OCAU...is a possiblity (they want different categories)
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/04 18:55:05
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devdog51
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 18:42:40
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Im all in for you AB. Doesnt matter if we come in last I still get to fold.
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troy8d
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/04 19:14:45
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Xavier Zepherious
currently Im waiting to see what happens with zodac and troy
seems my ideas and tweaks to zodacs formula went nowhere
Don't expect anything from me. I don't believe zodac is approaching this with the intention of making a contest that is fair to all teams involved - which is where my primary interest lies. And at the moment I don't have the stomach to deal with the petty bickering and unresponsiveness that has been reported from the captains thread. Furthermore, no system is going to be perfect and it is all to easy for people to blame the system rather than their lack of ability/effort and given that I have a very limited amount of free time I've spent enough of it dealing with backlash from the folding community at the moment. 
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 05:17:03
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I really do wish (at least for CC which is such a great opportunity for mega Folding) that it would be break free of the structure that seems to mire and produce angst just trying to get it off the ground each year. I was in the grocery store yesterday and met up with a guy in the deli that I always take time to speak with. In our conversation, he shared with me that his wife has (3) different cancers and a whole host of things that are going on with her health, including great pain. This morning when I woke, I was praying for both of them and the thought entered my mind...our focus as Folders and donors to this great effort needs to rise well above the petty and unimportant points-related issues of Folding contests. We have what could be another great opportunity to contribute to science world-wide, help people one day like my friend's wife and yet the points wrangling of CC seems to take center stage. It was sort of a sobering thought for me and I do believe it was God's way of reorienting me more than anything else...telling me to get my own head on straight and quit being concerned at all about anything other than the larger, more important picture. Sometimes that happens to me and I thank God for grabbing me mentally whenever it is necessary. No matter what happens with CC, just Fold in whatever manner that you desire and find encouraging to this great work. Just thought I'd share these thoughts today with the Team for what they are worth. Fold-on my brothers and sisters... 
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 07:52:50
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Gotta appreciate/love those HardwareCanucks. A few of them are even willing to run just an all-out points race to at least have CC 2012. Now that's focusing on the higher things of why we are here. They continue to impress me (from their thread) as a Team that really cares about the overall objective and is willing to be as flexible as possible to get there. Heh, maybe we should be working out the points structure with them since they seem to be willing work with us. http://www.hardwarecanuck...ead-12.html#post618035
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blkhole
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 09:47:38
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texinga
Gotta appreciate/love those HardwareCanucks. A few of them are even willing to run just an all-out points race to at least have CC 2012. Now that's focusing on the higher things of why we are here. They continue to impress me (from their thread) as a Team that really cares about the overall objective and is willing to be as flexible as possible to get there. Heh, maybe we should be working out the points structure with them since they seem to be willing work with us.
http://www.hardwarecanuck...ead-12.html#post618035
Maybe we should just do a weighted competition w/ them.  I do like the idea of multi-group challenges, if executed correctly I believe it should be an exercise that helps bring the folding community together; and if they're flexible/low drama then it could be a lot of fun! I know that some are anti-weighting/formulas and such, but I do think that if done properly and with a group of mature people that it can be leveraged effectively and still garner a positive result (happy people and maximum output). I'd just as soon weight it a bit in their favor to make us work that much harder, as long as it is a concieveably attainable goal then I think it gives us something to work towards (unlike the CC where it seems that our ship has sunk before we've even attempted to board it)... I'd rather lose by a narrow (weighted) margin to a fun group then lose by a mile in a rigged system to people who -knew- they were going to win before the competition started...
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 09:50:47
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HWC has the right idea. At this point I will accept any format just to have the CC. I agree, texinga, we need to focus on promoting folding and producing as much as possible, not on points systems. An all out points race just to salvage the CC would definitely weed out the teams that care more about winning than promoting "the cause." I can already see it happening, as this forum, and now HWC, are shifting toward doing whatever will save the contest instead of holding on to their favorite points system argument or not communicating at all.
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rothweil
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 18:34:35
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Personally i plan on participating. I didn't care for the point system from last year but winning or out doing others in points isn't my motivation for doing this. I have seen some of the diseases that f@h is trying to find a cure for affect my family members. I fold for them and for myself. So hopefully down the road if I end up with it that there may be a cure for it. That's my two cents. Just want everyone to not forget the core reason for all this....... finding cures for diseases and cancers.
Main Computer: EVGA P55 LE Core I5 650 @ 3.8Ghz 8GB Gskill 1333Mhz (BOINC) EVGA GeForce GTX 770 SC ACX 2048MB @ 1111MHz 
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KMoore4318
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/05 19:58:44
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I wish there was some way we could partacapate like we do in the time zone chalange, or March madness, ( Under our own names, ) that way everyone would continue to be able to track their points, and those that do not partacapate would not be able to move up the ranks by opting out. I'll be in, if we dicide as a team to be in; But I'm going to fold just as much, if we decide not to partacapate.
  Just clink Link to Register > My Affiliate Code:VTJPDC4OMB 1)965 V-8 E758(77)580 AX1200 2)980 NH-U12P-SE E761(77)2(980) AX1200 3)980X H-70 E770 (77)2(590) AX1200 4)980X H-70 E762(77)2(580) AX1200 5)920 EVGA Super Cooler E756(82)590 HX1000 6)680I 2(560-ti) HX1000W
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 05:29:07
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I think there is also some assumption/misinformation floating around about our Team's efforts and willingness to arrive at a fair CC solution. This is a post by "Adak" who appears to be a spokesperson for the Overclockers.com Team. http://www.overclockers.c...?p=7147264#post7147264 Also, I found this response from Zodac a bit odd to an OCN member's question "whats the word on CC 2012"? Zodac's response: "Yeah...No news yet I'm afraid." http://www.overclock.net/...2/chimp-challenge-2012 It kinda amazes me that even after our Team Captains have overtly attempted to get people talking that people have the opinion that we are holding up progress. From my view, there's really been "crickets" over at OCN as to discussion about CC 2012 and then when someone asks where they are, the answer is a very brief "no news". Where is the OCN Team discussion about how to arrive at agreement happening over there...offline perhaps or not at all? These things seem odd to me and I expect part of Xavier's frustrations trying to get Teams to work this thing out. 
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 09:04:15
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Kinda amazes me since they only posted once recently in the CC forums and offered nothing and agreed to nothing. one post in sign in and one post in stats - and they said this only Any system needs to be based on whatever that team expects to produce, realistically, around the time of the chimp challenge. If we take our average from last years chimp challenge it penalises teams that haven't grown since. If we don't take the average from the chimp challenge then it penalises teams who don't have a bunch of others jumping on board during CC. I even recently check it (posted march 22 - nothing since) Custom Bit tech had said more if we took the handicap from last years CC then it favores OCN because they have a 40% PPD increase (check team stats) OCN wanted to keep HPCS months out how do you? leaving it out would give teams using it an unfair handicap advantage Handicap is not the issue... HWC and other have indicated it would have been unfair for OCN to avoid their best output OCN has also backed off that - and have accepted that the handicap must include best output week or weeks the crux is Im the only one offering Formula changes - Zodac only offered there's (and won't accept any idea I propose) and hasn't offered modifications of theirs (although Zodac says they are willing to make changes). Zodac also in the position that the teams must chose the formula and make the changes (and not just one or two) no one else has offered different formula and the majority hasn't even accepted OCN's formula - even when she PM'd and sent a message to the captains to take their proposal/formula to a vote with the (one team concept as a second option) (OCN deadline - that came and went - so they can get their people out) we still haven't received an answer from the teams on that So I ask again what do you want to do - take Zodac formula as is and go with it? or do you want the one team idea (HWC is game for that)
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/06 09:32:00
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 09:08:39
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I love how "I heard" from one person all of the sudden can become fact. Some folks need to do a little research before they post false information. It only makes their creditably drop.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 09:35:13
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It sounds like nobody (that is responding) but Zodac likes OCN's formula, so from my view that thing should be discarded so that progress toward something acceptable to all could move forward. What about that idea that HWC has been floating in their CC 2012 thread? I'm quoting Adak's response in the Overclockers thread, but Chrisk from HWC has also been floating the same idea. Adak expanded on it a bit more in the Overclockers.com forum thread (above). Here's that thought cut-n-pasted below: "However, another folder suggested we have two brackets, one for a straight race with no handicap involved (only the biggest teams would have a shot at it, but it would be exciting nonetheless), and then a handicap bracket (just one), which would use the "basis" as mentioned above, to make it a fairer race amongst all the different sized teams. Note that having other teams "merge" for the CC is simply no problem with this handicap scheme. Each teams basis would be easily calculated from their performance last year, so if NCIX wants to race again with Hardware Canucks Forum, it's no problem at all. Their basis would reflect that. Big changes would take a year to adjust the basis, but that's a lot like player drafts in the NFL, etc. It has a nice leveling effect, keeping it more competitive in the league. It also removes any effect of other big contests, etc., that a commercial team like EVGA may have going on, in the rest of the year. Finally, it makes the calculations for the basis dead simple, since we have that data already, and it's only 10 days or so worth of data, instead of a whole year." I'm not a contest points expert, and figure you guys understand this stuff a lot better than I do. I'd also be OK with the "One Team" idea if that was agreed upon.
post edited by texinga - 2012/04/06 09:36:17
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 09:47:40
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I think OCAU offered a suggestion like that (brackets) so it's not new (I think it fell on it's face) it's similar to the multiple category one they suggested like I said it's not that ideas haven't been offered - just some teams are so stuck to positions that there is no movement and others are either not there or are not responding to suggestions or to deadline demands by OCN or even EVGA at this point Im willing to accept anything. However I won't because I respect what the team wants...and Im leaving you a say the problem is getting others to sign in and agree
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/06 12:41:30
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 10:10:10
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I hear ya Xavier. What I'm wondering is...if HWC, Overclockers, OCAU and maybe even our Team seems to think the "bracket" idea has some interest, then maybe a fresh look could be taken at it. What I like about the bracket concept is that it seems to provide some answers for the problem that CC faces (wide disparity among Teams of varying sizes). I'm feeling that an idea like that one has abetter chance than the "one team" idea because there is still some competition among Teams which has traditionally been part of the fun of CC.
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texinga
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 10:44:22
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Hey Xavier...just in case you may not have seen it, Adak (from Overclockers.com) responded to you in this thread and has expanded upon the Brackets idea. I think he is onto something with this and seems interested in developing some simple solutions. Looking beyond that comment he made earlier about EVGA's participation, it appears that he is genuinely interested in helping get this train back on the track. http://www.overclockers.c...153926&postcount=9 Hoping that we can get somewhere soon and as always appreciative of your volunteer efforts! 
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 11:18:43
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yep I've seen it. Im responding favorably. As I did with OCAU's idea earlier (OCAU multiple category idea had the all out PPD and a handicap - And I agreed to this many times - even as a fallback) Again this is an idea that was suggested earlier in some form and was shot down by OCN...lets hope it gains traction You can Find Adak and david on HWC as well from time to time so I knew they were at least getting news that way
post edited by Xavier Zepherious - 2012/04/06 11:52:09
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 15:27:08
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Finally! Movement from more Captains... Really happy to read this...
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Xavier Zepherious
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Re:Chimp Challenge 2012
2012/04/06 17:26:57
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I'll know more once I get more feedback
I Sent messages to all the team capts including Bosun
OCN hasn't commented yet... they were on the CC forums and responded to another post on items - prize pools, new team req. and having a public section for questions, comments, and ideas for visitors or new teams
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