Maybe we should start a poll about weather to participate or just have a fold-a-thon. I enjoy participating ,but I do tire of the politics involved and the perceived perception from outside our Team. I do think you hit on something with the bux folders.

texinga
Xavier,  several of us have been asking those same questions for awhile now.  While we are in the questioning mode, here's another.  Who really is "we" when the subject arises about whether CC has to be designed a fair contest between Teams?  is it really a significant, representation of our Folding community, or perhaps a very small segment of people that feel they are representing a larger interest?  One thing that we do know is that CC has lost entire teams from participation (some very large, some medium) and that too is a problem indicator for the "contest".
 
At times, I've visited the other Team's CC threads as several of you have.  I don't recall seeing people hell-bent that CC must be Team-vs-Team or getting all wrapped-up in formulas, fairness, ringers, etc.  I do recall seeing a lot of "I don't care who wins" and "I know we don't have a chance, but I'll be there anyway" kind of comments.  Those are not the comments of people that really have high interest in the things that we bang our heads upon developing every year.  They appear to just like the "big event" and the tradition of a large Fold-a-thon to kill diseases.  Maybe we are trying to drive (or keep alive) a flavor of CC that the majority of Folders don't even care about. 
 
Sbinh, hi there and thanks for dropping-in.  I relate with much of what you said and several of us have suggested that we do something totally new.

 
From what I recall HWC wouldn't care nor would MPC
in fact many would probably just do straight points race- not for a symbolic Jaded monkey
the only ones balking are OCN and OCF for last two or three years 
 
OCAU didn't care - TSC didn't,  HWC didn't, MPC wanted it back to original 
and these are smaller teams than OCN or OCF
 
you have to look TSC doesn't stand a chance under any system nor does OCAU, or Bit-TECH, or MPC
they had no problems with a PPD race - having another race simultaneously was more of a benefit for them for them to hope for some other prize
some even stated that
 
the jaded monkey was suppose to represent the best folding team (Which is [H] at the moment)
Something that should be earned by growing your team and it's production- not by hook or crook of the rules or by handicapping another so they can't win
 
the problem is the captians design and agree on the contest - Im only 1 vote -if enough capts convince the others of another route Im outvoted
At least that's how it's been - very little team input(specially from other teams) - because of the lack of transparency and openness
I don't blame the teams for feeling that nothing changes - we get crappy results year after year
 
last couple of years it's been my way or the highway (teams or team captains forcing ultimatums - two in particular OCN,OCF)
 
Which is why Im always pushing to open the process up - problem is there is so much pent up angst bad feelings that it's harder to accomplish anything
 
LIke I said Im open to a variety of contest 
 
match set players from each team (match combined PPD heads up)
PPD,
Handicaps,
Team averaging
combining teams
Foldathon
 
Heads up captains (Im open to losing - make me buckle up my belt next time around)
Newbie race
Heads up HIGHEST producer of each team
continental race/country race (continental cup or bejeweled chalice)
 
pick them all
if you want more fine
 
no single race will work - unless it's a foldathon  or single combined goal
 
So I ask you to consider that first
 
It will either be a bonanza of awards (and a headache to do stats) or a simple "fold for the cause" Event
 
I hope drougnor doesn't have a fit if we pick a dozen or so contest to do stats on...LOL
 
 
PS:
Quite frankly if it wasn't a contest and just a foldathon
I think we could get [H] to fold it's square brackets off for the event
 
Why not - no winners you fold your "brackets" and parts off for a short stint for fun, for fallen victims and friends
 
And just keep a note of the increase each brought in for the event over our normal folding
We run our own internal contest if we want but the Event is strictly for "THE CAUSE"
 

I can get down with the cold beer... but I was speaking more to the 'all inclusive' no need to sign up for event.  I'll fold if it isn't counted without me joining the CC.  I do that 24/7 anyway.  My intention Troy was to say that if I'm automatically included in an event I have no desire to be part of... then I will shut down my machines.
 
It was not meant to be any more than that... I too like others love to help find cures.  I just do not wish to be part of the drama if I'm automatically included in it.  I believe you understand this.

Viper97
Okay... I'm just going to put this out there.  Skip CC... period.  I'll fold for any contest, any thing this team asks me to, wants me to or puts together.  I will not participate in the CC.  Period.  It's tainted and I'm actually adamant about this.  [H] has the right idea... the heck with it.  Me I won't play.  End of story... end of line.
 
I cannot wrap my head around a contest that so handicaps anything that it's impossible to win for the 'big' players.  I cannot lend, create or come up with an idea to make it 'fair'.
 
So... that said... enjoy.  I'll actually shut down my rigs if the team joins the CC this next go around.  Simply out of protest.  I'm all for further the cause but not so at the expense of our camaraderie amongst this team. 

Actually, if you do not mind my suggestion... Would you consider converting those machines to another team that is not in the CC so those that need our help do not lose
out? I have been in transition the last few months and desperately want to get back to 24/7 folding and crunching  I had been running. But if the CC goes sideways, I will most likely fold with another team or push everything over to Crunching...

Thanks for the clarification Sbinh.  Several of us have done a thank-you Fold for [H] this year, so we understand what you are doing and why. It is a right thing to do for a team that has given so much to the Folding community. 
 
My thinking was that in the past we already have teams that left CC and said they wouldn't be back (HardOCP and MaximumPC).  They did so because CC was either too far away from it's origins or that it was causing too much strife within their team.  Those two issues have not changed from what I can tell.  If we could have an annual Folding event that does not wreak havoc on teams or seem too convoluted to sustain, it could be something positive to look forward to doing. 
 
The Time Zone Challenge is such a contest.  It has none of the annual design issues and negativity that developing CC seems to bring.  It is also a contest, so we get to enjoy the competition.  It is no where near a "balanced contest" with a bunch of handicapping issues either.  It is just plain fun to do and people want to do it as designed.  That is the kind of contest that I feel we need to replace CC.
 
I get where Viper is at too.  It just gets to be too much trying to keep reinventing CC every year.  It wears you down and makes you just want to do something else.  I agree with Troy's and AB's recommendation too.  Fold somewhere, somehow.

Let's get back to some truth here.

@troy8d

The Chimp Challenge has morphed from the fun, unifying event it once was to something that causes a great deal of discord with in our own folding community and divisiveness in the greater folding community.

Troy, the CC was was born competitive, and up to now, has ALWAYS been a source of keen competition. It was ALL about team pride, never "unifying". It was "We Will Rock YOU! <sing it!> ", not "We Are The World".

I wanted to explore LESS competitive ideas for this CC, but that is something past CC's NEVER were about. Not the first one, and not any CC since, either. I keep seeing people post this - it wasn't true then, and has never been true. Troy, the CC was fun for you earlier, because EVGA won some of them.  That's always fun.

@texinga

My thinking was that in the past we already have teams that left CC and said they wouldn't be back (HardOCP and MaximumPC).  They did so because CC was either too far away from it's origins or that it was causing too much strife within their team.  Those two issues have not changed from what I can tell.

 
One more time - [H] quit racing in the CC because of the problem with having to use one team folding name, instead of their own name. Many folders did not like that, and refused to change their name. Others resented those who would not join the race.


That was changed this year, and yes, I did heavily promote it. When you say that this issue has "not been changed", you're just wrong.
 
MaximumPC team used to be #3 in the world, but in the years since then, they've lost a large number of their top 100 folders, including the Spider Monkeys group that first raced in the CC. Spider Monkey is the moderator of that forum, but he doesn't fold for MaximumPC anymore.

14
546
softailguy
 
 
0
0
0
0
91,243,657
8,880
15
560
Spider_Monkey
 
 
0
0
0
0
89,322,412
148,147
16
613
Scottie_314159
 
 
0
0
0
0
80,560,064
69,293

Forty-four of their top 100 folders, have stopped folding. They are now #6 in the world, and will be passed again if things don't improve.
 
And of course, they lost GSmitheman who was totally dedicated to folding, and their long-term and well loved, moderator. They are in a current down-swing, and they know it. When they get back on the up-swing, they'll race again, I have no doubt.
 
Xavier: you've mentioned having several races at the same time. The two problems I see with that are:
 
1) You need extra support people to run these other races. We always have had problems getting support volunteers and without them, it puts more work on the volunteers we are lucky to have for the one race/event.
 
If you can drum up reliable people to support these other races, then this idea would be better received.
 
2) Several races going on at the same time, dilutes the importance of any one race. We want a race or event, but something with three or less races/events. The big factor though is #1 - support people for these other races.
 
@Viper, etc.
If this CC discussion is stressing you out, you don't need to be here. Let your Captain know how you feel, and let it go. Obviously there will be differences of opinion generated in such a thread.
 
We should try to give birth to a better CC, not bury it, in this thread. Nothing positive will result from repeating over and over, how the CC should stop, how bad it is, etc. That has been mentioned several times, over and over, by the same people who thought that way last year. Nothing positive will come of it. The CC doesn't mean that you can't have other races and contests, both internally and with other teams. Go right ahead!
 
This is just one race or event. It will never satisfy everyone. Being negative about it helps no one.
 
 

You assume too much Adak... I am not stressed about the CC, I am however certain that it is as worthless a contest/game/race or whatever you wish to call it as can possibly be.  Since I'm a rather older member here on the forum I don't see where you have the need or ability to tell me that I needn't input my thoughts. 
 
It is this sort of mentality that you tend to bring in here that I'm fighting.  However if the team tells me not to say anything I stay out of it.  It is their decision to make, not yours. 

Well, I'm older, so listen up! ;)
 
Do you see anything good coming out of contributing this negative point of view about the CC, over and over? The idea is to improve the CC, not see how much bad mouthing we can give it. We want the maternity ward for this, not the graveyard.
 
We need to get ideas for the CC. They don't have to be great ideas, just "possible" ideas, right now. We'll sort through them later on. All the negativity tends to just shut down the flow of ideas. I'm not telling you where to post, or how to post. Just asking for a little consideration, is all.
 
Texinga, I was there when [H] stopped racing. I discussed it on their forum, as well as on other forums. I discussed it with [H] members who race with OCF every year, also. I believe posts on [H] from that period have been largely deleted, but OCF has some still. Indeed, OCF had the exact same problem, in prior years. You can look back at OCAU and Hardware Canucks and still see the posts I made there to promote the "no name change required", as well as Tom's Hardware team forum and PCPitstop's forum. You can also count up the number of top 100 Maximum PC folders that have quit folding.
 
But I'm not here to argue by-gone facts or opinions of old CC races. I'm asking for a little consideration from you. Can we call a truce? The more time we spend arguing, the more likely the CC will remain unchanged.
 
 
 
 
 

Adak1
Well, I'm older, so listen up! ;)
 
Do you see anything good coming out of contributing this negative point of view about the CC, over and over? The idea is to improve the CC, not see how much bad mouthing we can give it. We want the maternity ward for this, not the graveyard.
 
We need to get ideas for the CC. They don't have to be great ideas, just "possible" ideas, right now. We'll sort through them later on. All the negativity tends to just shut down the flow of ideas. I'm not telling you where to post, or how to post. Just asking for a little consideration, is all.
 
Texinga, I was there when [H] stopped racing. I discussed it on their forum, as well as on other forums. I discussed it with [H] members who race with OCF every year, also. I believe posts on [H] from that period have been largely deleted, but OCF has some still. Indeed, OCF had the exact same problem, in prior years. You can look back at OCAU and Hardware Canucks and still see the posts I made there to promote the "no name change required", as well as Tom's Hardware team forum and PCPitstop's forum. You can also count up the number of top 100 Maximum PC folders that have quit folding.
 
But I'm not here to argue by-gone facts or opinions of old CC races. I'm asking for a little consideration from you. Can we call a truce? The more time we spend arguing, the more likely the CC will remain unchanged.

Adak, we have every right to discuss CC alternatives here without being accused of being "negative".  Why don't you simply leave us alone and stop worrying why some of us don't want to play in your CC sandbox?  If you are older than I am, I'd think that by now you would have learned about diversity.  There is no need to go on the attack here in hopes that it will somehow convince people that your opinion on CC has to be adopted.  Try that strategy over at [H] and tell us how well that works for you. 
 
People here are resisting you more than they are a contest.  Haven't you figured that out by now?  Nobody here comes into this thread to pick a fight other than you.  You are getting dished back at you what you are putting out.  People here are peaceful, we haven't been bad-mouthing you at other forums and your forum at OCF is not being plagued with rudeness.  How you can think that it is OK to do those things to us and expect us to want to work with you simply escapes logic.  There is a lot of bad water under the bridge here with you.  I can't put it any more plainly than that and if you still can't get it, then I have nothing more to offer you.

Adak, we have every right to discuss CC alternatives here without being accused of being "negative".  Why don't you simply leave us alone and stop worrying why some of us don't want to play in your CC sandbox?  If you are older than I am, I'd think that by now you would have learned about diversity.  There is no need to go on the attack here in hopes that it will somehow convince people that your opinion on CC has to be adopted.  Try that strategy over at [H] and tell us how well that works for you. 

 
I'm not trying to change your rights. I'm just asking for a space so ideas can flow freely. I'm here because you have a large team, with a CC discussion thread. Most teams don't have that, unless I've started it for them. It would be unfair to ignore your team's input.
 
I'm not trying to get anything adopted here, Texinga. I'm trying to get feedback on ideas, to ID the good ones, and get other ideas, also. I'm not here to sell you on anything. I wanted to get your team's reaction to being given some sales pitches, however. The real CC proposals will be made in the Captain's forum. Perhaps I wasn't clear about that.
 
Yes, I'd like to see [H] back in the CC, when they're ready. In general, I strongly support having more teams in the CC.
I thought VGT was a great addition to the CC this year, and would like to see more like them, join in. Another team is interested in joining the next CC.
 
Hopefully, we'll have a good race format, and more teams than ever.
 
I waited for years for others to improve the CC - not much was changed. Now, I'm working on the CC, and things are changing. Threads like this one, help make those differences, possible. We need good ideas to evaluate, so we can make good changes, positive changes, to the CC.
 
 

texinga
 
 
Adak, we have every right to discuss CC alternatives here without being accused of being "negative".  Why don't you simply leave us alone and stop worrying why some of us don't want to play in your CC sandbox?  If you are older than I am, I'd think that by now you would have learned about diversity.  There is no need to go on the attack here in hopes that it will somehow convince people that your opinion on CC has to be adopted.  Try that strategy over at [H] and tell us how well that works for you. 
 
People here are resisting you more than they are a contest.  Haven't you figured that out by now?  Nobody here comes into this thread to pick a fight other than you.  You are getting dished back at you what you are putting out.  People here are peaceful, we haven't been bad-mouthing you at other forums and your forum at OCF is not being plagued with rudeness.  How you can think that it is OK to do those things to us and expect us to want to work with you simply escapes logic.  There is a lot of bad water under the bridge here with you.  I can't put it any more plainly than that and if you still can't get it, then I have nothing more to offer you.

 
I thought he was banned from these forums.

If the internal contests are strictly with our team and not a part of the CC at all.  I'm in.  If in any way it becomes part of the CC I'll decline to participate and either as pointed out by AB, fold for a non-participating CC team or switch my rigs over to BOINC during that time frame.

@Xavier:
I just did a full search of the entire Captain's forum, main thread. The term "tit-for-tat", (with or without hyphens, and in either uppercase or lowercase), is not there. Look for yourself.
 
This year's CC race had more teams, threatened by more teams, (in close proximity, by percentage), than ever before. More teams were passed by number, than every before, as well. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Count the passes up and see for yourself.
 
OCF won the race, because I worked for 4 months to recruit racers (old and new, from inside OCF and from outside), and my team rallied together very solidly, with some very enthusiastic outside folders, joining in.
 
Onward to the 2014 race format:
 
You have resources here, that most teams do not. I won't commit to a race format, that we can't get reliable support for. If you have that, or expect to have it, be sure to mention it at the first Captain's meeting. That's very important to be known before any race formats are decided. If you want to have multiple races going on, then it's absolutely critical to have the support for it "signed up", before we decide on a final race format.
 
This year, I'd like to do something different. We have the idea** of a non-handicap race with groups of teams banding together to form approximately equal teams. If these teams could be made approximately equal, that sounds like a format idea that should be pursued.
 
Do you like this idea? 
 
**It's not my idea, don't worry. <lol>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Xavier:

we visit fold for [H] yet we got no help from [H]
 WHY? PREY TELL

When EVGA first threatened, and then passed [H] for the #1 team in FAH, there were some EVGA-centered comments made, which [H] members read, and took strong exception to. It's been a few years, but iirc, a few of them which disparaged [H], were copied into posts on [H]'s forum, by [H]'s members. It had the effect of whipping up the [H]orde, to greater folding efforts.
 
There is also a natural "Big Corporate team" vs. "Big Non-Corporate team" element involved, as well - EVGA bucks program, and all that.
 
I don't know how strong this feeling is today. This was from years ago. You should go to their forum, and ask. I certainly don't speak for the [H]orde. In my opinion, you won't find a more helpful and dedicated folding team, than [H].
 
One example, they found a way to overclock 4P boards - not all boards, but some of them. If you do it wrong however (and it's technical), you can quickly turn your $600 mobo into a paper-weight - useless. Well, sure enough, one of my OCF teammates did just that! Tear from [H], then took his own board, and risked it, to find a way to bring back the board from my teammate. It took about a week or two to succeed.

 
That is quite extraordinary, but that is what you find on [H].