Helpful ReplyAnother water cooling newbie question

Author
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
2010/10/07 21:51:55 (permalink)
Hi all,
 
I have tried to read different forums to learn and gather info. So far, based on what I have read, there's no "perfect" water cooling. The results vary on different system, so it really depends on personal preference after laying down all the info. I just finished building my new desktop last week and planning to water cool it as my holiday project. First of all, I'm a total newbie when it comes to water cooling and this will be my first water cooling experience. I would like to ask your opinions, suggestions and help regarding water cooling.
 
I'm planning to keep everything with-in my case (no external rad) which will limit my built. My case can only support a 2x120mm rad located at the top and a 1x120mm rad at the back. As to what I've read, a water cooling system can have a high flow rate or a high head pressure. My first question would be...What would you guys suggest, given my rad limitation, would be best? Based on my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, here's the difference between the two:
 
High Flow Rate: Since water flows fast within the cooling system, the farthest block can get fresher water compared to a high head pressure system. The down side is that since water flows fast through the blocks, it don't have much time to actually absorb more heat from the blocks. It also flows fast through the rad which means it also don't have much time to cool itself.
High Head Pressure: Since water flows slower than the high flow rate system, it can absorb as much heat as it can, and when it pass through the rad, the rad can cool it better. The down side would be that the farthest block would get higher water temp compared to a high flow rate system.
 
I believe that the blocks that I would be using depends on what type/style of cooling system build I would go for. For high flow rate, I'm planning to get the WC Heatkiller 3.0 LC. For high head pressure, I'm planning to get the Koolance CPU-350. I'm also planning to water cool (in addition to the CPU) my 2xGPU, MOSFET, NB/SB and ram. What order would be best in my situation? I normally see people suggest res -> pump -> rad -> cpu -> ... -> .... so that the cpu would get the freshest water out of the rad. I guess my next set of questions would be..  
Would a 2 loop be better or 1 loop is good enough?
What would be a good order if I'll be doing 2 loop? If 1 loop?
What rad and fan would be best for high flow rate? high head pressure? (for the fan, I'm trying to balance CFM over dBA)
 
As for the coolant, I've read that distilled water is still the best, just need to add some additives. Where can I buy good cheap distilled water? what are the additives that I need and where can I buy them? Is it ok if I'll be adding color additive to it?
 
All info, opinion, suggestions and corrections are welcome and will be gladly appreciated.
 
Thanks,
J
 
[edited]
I forgot to mention my specs.
Intel i7 950
2 x gtx 470 SC
EVGA x58 SLI3
6GB Corsair XMS3
Antec Quattro 850w
Xion Predator 970
 
I'm planning to overclock my system after water cooling it.
post edited by jayjose - 2010/10/07 22:56:46
#1
YerBuddy
Omnipotent Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 8936
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2005/08/25 09:55:57
  • Location: Classified
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 59
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 02:14:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
That's a lot of heat monsters to cool with only one double rad and one single rad.  Certainly not trying to discourage your plans, but I wouldn't be trying to cool that much stuff with one triple rad.  I like to have lots of headroom for OC and that's the key to all this stuff.  If you are not into overclocking very much then you may be able to get away with your plans. 
 
I would start off slowly and maybe just cool the CPU and GPUs with the rads you want to go with.  However, even then, you are limiting yourself.  My recommendation would be to reconsider hanging a decent triple or quad rad off the back of your case.  Like I stated earlier, I like more headroom.  If that's totally out of the question then you may need to rethink what you are going to cool.  You already know, I assume, that i7 and Fermi generate a lot of heat.  Anyway, here's a few rads to look at (these are just recommendations):
 
http://www.performance-pc...&products_id=25387
 
http://www.performance-pc...&products_id=25388
 
I would run the loop as one.  I usually run similar to what you mentioned above.  However, rad placement is really not a big deal.  At a certain point in time the liquid inside the entire loop will reach it's highest temp and will remain that way.  Rad placement is a myth.  It doesn't matter where it's located.  Many people will argue with me on that one, but I've tested it over and over for years and I can't find a way to make it any different.  Unless other factors are introduced (i.e. ambients, density altitude, fan/static pressure changes, rad changes, etc.) then the dependent variable is time. 
 
You need a silver coil for anti bacterial:
 
http://www.performance-pc...&products_id=28871
 
That's all I use.  Distilled H2O and the silver coil.  Distilled water can be found at just about any grocery store.  They come in huge gallon jugs and are very cheap.  Much cheaper than ordering coolants.
 
Some will also argue that there is a need for a corrosive inhibitor, but I've been doing this for several years and I've never had the need for it.  I have several rads that are still running the same as always for many years.  I can't be certain that there isn't something happening (corrosive wise) inside those rads, but they are still performing and performing as they always have.  Two of them I've had for 5 years.  I'm not convinced that I need anything other than distilled water and a silver coil.
 
Good luck and have fun!
#2
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 09:51:30 (permalink)
Thanks YerBuddy for the input. I'm not really sure if triple rad is enough for what I would like to do. Well, the only reason why I want to keep it all internal is just for aesthetics. If I would be putting an external triple rad at the back (in addition to the internal double rad at the top) What would be the part that I would need? and how about the fan wiring? Sorry for all the questions..I'm totally new at water cooling.
 
Thanks



 
#3
nateman_doo
Omnipotent Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 10493
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2008/01/16 16:16:54
  • Location: NOT the Jersey shore
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 52
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 10:47:05 (permalink)
Here is what you should ask yourself: 
What do you care about most, LOOKS, or PERFORMANCE.
 
You can fit all sorts of radiators in a computer, you just need to see how handy you are. 
 
Just looking at this pic from Xion I see why thats all you think you can fit in there:

 
Think OUTSIDE the box.  If you want the best performance, you will have to get handy with some tools.  I know you want to keep everything inside and that is very do-able, but when u say inside, you mean not hanging off correct? 
 
If that is so, you can do some front grill work, and fit a double rad in there easily enough where it may stick out 1/2", but it will still not hang off.
 
If you look at the side of your case, you can fit all sorts of stuff there, but you have to be willing to do some heavy case mods to do it.  I know you said you are new to water cooling, but you may just be a crafty individual and good with your hands & tools.  If you can fit a double rad in the top with no mods, then you can fit a triple rad on top with some modifactions.  It looks easy enough that it will fit:

(source)
 
There is clearly the room here, but you may not want to do the work, or your not experienced enough.  You may have to move the Optical Drive down a bay to clear the hoses?  or put the hoses in the back with 90° barbs.  The only impossible thing is what you tell yourself you cannot do.  Hope this helps!
 
#4
YerBuddy
Omnipotent Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 8936
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2005/08/25 09:55:57
  • Location: Classified
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 59
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 10:55:53 (permalink)
No problem at all jayjose.  We've all been there at one point.
 
There are several mounts for the case.  I'm assuming your case has an exauhst fan at the rear.  I'm currently using this one:
 
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=25631
 
It's pretty pricey and there are others that you can get for cheaper.  However, this one is sturdy.  It also makes it vere easy to detach if you need.  Here's what mine looks like with a quad rad mounted:
 

#5
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 14:02:34 (permalink)
@nateman_doo: Thanks, you are right. I need to think more outside the box. I don't really trust my skills to do mods but will definitely consider and think of trying it.
 
Seeing that picture is the reason why i thought of If a double rad is enough for the CPU and dual GPU, maybe if I'll add a single rad to cool the MOSFET, NB/SB and ram on a separate loop, maybe I can get away with it since those are being passively cooled with a a heatsink in the first place.
 
@YerBuddy: cool system you got there. Is the quad rad the only rad you have in that box or is there also a triple rad on the top? and what size of tube you are using?
 
Thanks for all the info and suggestions. I really do appreciate it..so keep them coming



 
#6
YerBuddy
Omnipotent Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 8936
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2005/08/25 09:55:57
  • Location: Classified
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 59
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/08 14:52:19 (permalink)
Yep.  Triple rad up top, quad on the back, both on one loop.  I'm using 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD. 
#7
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/11 14:46:41 (permalink)
Has anyone have a link discussion/reviews/info regarding different types of rad? I know I've come across it somewhere but can't seems to find it. If there's some discussions regarding the number of fins, pass, air flow, heat dissipation, etc.. would be great ^_^



 
#8
thor88
SSC Member
  • Total Posts : 952
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2009/06/23 22:55:02
  • Location: Fort Worth, Texas
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 5
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/11 14:54:08 (permalink)

DUEL- A prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honor.
DUAL- composed or consisting of two people, items, parts, etc.


#9
EVGATech_DaveB
EVGA Tech Support
  • Total Posts : 4716
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2008/09/26 17:03:47
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 43
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/11 15:40:26 (permalink)
Nate and YerBuddy are 100% right, you are looking at heavy case modding or external.  One thing to also look at when picking your rads (internal ones) get a measurement for how much room you have vertically above the motherboard to the top of the chassis.  Some mid towers that are made for watercooling have severe thickness restrictions.  For example, without serious modding, you cannot fit a  BlackIce 240 in the top of a CM 690 II Advanced, whereas a Swiftech fit perfectly. 
Just don't want to see you get caught up on a small oversight ;)
#10
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/11 23:37:31 (permalink)
@DaveB: thanks for pointing that out. I actually didn't thought of that. I was under the impression of that there is a standard size for the rads. I have some idea for case mod but I lack the tools, knowledge and skills to do a mod So I'll go for an external rad in addition to the internal one. Thank you all for the help.
 
Another questions, I've seen some set-up who has double external rad, they sandwiched the fans between 2 rads, is it a good idea?
 
@YerBuddy: in your set-up, are the fans and pump at max? or you are using a fan controller to set their rpm? I'm guessing that the pump act the same way as the fan, that you can control it using a fan controller or something. I'm thinking, if I'll be water cooling my GPU, maybe I can use the GPU fan pin for the pump and use EVGA Precision to control it. Is it possible?
post edited by jayjose - 2010/10/11 23:42:21
#11
YerBuddy
Omnipotent Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 8936
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2005/08/25 09:55:57
  • Location: Classified
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 59
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/12 02:05:57 (permalink)
jayjose

@YerBuddy: in your set-up, are the fans and pump at max? or you are using a fan controller to set their rpm? I'm guessing that the pump act the same way as the fan, that you can control it using a fan controller or something. I'm thinking, if I'll be water cooling my GPU, maybe I can use the GPU fan pin for the pump and use EVGA Precision to control it. Is it possible?

I keep all my fans on a fan controller.  This way I can turn it way down while surfing and up them for load.  However, my fans are really quiet even when they are full blast so it's not that bad.  I keep my pump running at the only setting it has...full pump speed.  I have the 655 that doesn't have the variable speed adjustment and I like it that way.  I don't see any benefit, in my loop, for dropping the pump speed.  I'm sure you could control it by the GPU fan pin, but my question would be why?  There is no need for it IMO.  For controlling fans then I could see the usefulness, but I've never tried it.
#12
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/12 08:50:52 (permalink)
I was just thinking, if I'm just surfing or watching movies, the system won't need that much cooling compared to full load. So, reducing the water flow and fan speed would be a nice idea and if I somehow can attach it to my GPU card fan pin (since it won't be in use it it's WC) I can just set it up in Afterburner or precision and forget about it.
 
Anyone can suggest a good fan controller? is the a fan controller where you can control a group of fans? like one group woul be the fans for my internal rad, one group for my external rad and another group for some intake or whatever fan is there left?
#13
EVGATech_DaveB
EVGA Tech Support
  • Total Posts : 4716
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2008/09/26 17:03:47
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 43
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/12 13:38:59 (permalink)
jayjose

Another questions, I've seen some set-up who has double external rad, they sandwiched the fans between 2 rads, is it a good idea?



You definitly can, however it is not a necessity.  I have built single thick rads, and sandwhich rads.  I have a sandwhiched pair in a HAF case and they run well, the one thing I have done different than the directions was the tube routing.  The swiftech stackable rads say to connect in and out to one radiator and to connect them both together, so you are basically running them in parallel.  I tested it and my numbers were ok, then I changed the tubeing so it went in one rad, into thre other, then out the second rad, and temps improved greatly, and they are held together and cooled in the middle by Ultra Kaze fans.
 
As far as turning down your pressure, I would advise against it, im with YerBuddy again here.  I have a fan controller (Kaze Master) there are several good ones on the market.  I have the non adjustable pump, 655, and when I want to quiet it down, I turn the fans down, as my PSU makes more noise than my pump.
 
As far as one adjustment on a controller to handle multiple fans, technically you can, but most don't advise it, especially if you use high current fans.  I would check what the max amp load is per channel and check the current draw on fans and go from there, you may be able to do it, and I agree it would be handy, but it isnt always applicable.
#14
thor88
SSC Member
  • Total Posts : 952
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2009/06/23 22:55:02
  • Location: Fort Worth, Texas
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 5
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/12 14:44:14 (permalink)
FC2's can handle large loads per channel and they look pretty slick too. 45w per channel should be enough to handle 2 good fans on each switch... I currently have mine loaded up with 2 AP15s on the first 3 and 1 each on the last 3 and nothing has caught fire yet.. knock on wood.
 
http://www.performance-pc...&products_id=24896

DUEL- A prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honor.
DUAL- composed or consisting of two people, items, parts, etc.


#15
jayjose
New Member
  • Total Posts : 29
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/10/01 22:29:32
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 0
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/13 15:34:16 (permalink)
Thanks for all the answers and info. It has been a great help. I guess you already know, it's time for another round of questions ^_^
 
I'm currently looking at different rads and fans. As I read around, fpi, thickness of rad and fans cfm are the things that I need to take into consideration. High fpi rads needs fans with high cfm to push/pull air through the fins. Low fpi rads needs fans with low cfm since it's not that hard to push/pull air from/to the rad and slow air can absorbs more heat in this situation. My questions are
1) What fpi are considered high? mwdium? low?
2) What cfm are considered high? medium? low?
I'm leaning towards the low fpi/cfm because mostly low cfm fans has low dBA. I'm also thinking of, since I'll be putting external rad, I'm thinking of putting a sandwich of 2x360 rads instead of having a 240 rad in the case. This will make it easier to clean.
 
EVGATech_DaveB
 
You definitly can, however it is not a necessity.  I have built single thick rads, and sandwhich rads.  I have a sandwhiched pair in a HAF case and they run well, the one thing I have done different than the directions was the tube routing.  The swiftech stackable rads say to connect in and out to one radiator and to connect them both together, so you are basically running them in parallel.  I tested it and my numbers were ok, then I changed the tubeing so it went in one rad, into thre other, then out the second rad, and temps improved greatly, and they are held together and cooled in the middle by Ultra Kaze fans.

 
I agree that it would greatly improved the temp since the water will be going on a series of cooling instead of parallel. One other thing that I can think of which may improve the temp is, since it is sandwiched, letting the water passed through the rad where air is being pushed first then on to the rad where air is being pulled. The reason is, the air that is being pushed to the rad has higher temp because it already passed through the first rad (the one where air is being pulled). Anyway, just wanna share some thoughts about it ^_^



 
#16
EVGATech_DaveB
EVGA Tech Support
  • Total Posts : 4716
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2008/09/26 17:03:47
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 43
Re:Another water cooling newbie question 2010/10/18 11:05:13 (permalink)
That is similar to the setup I have.  I ran that setup more to test the theory and to see how well it would work, and was surprised at how well it did work.  Mine is actually going into the top rad first, and air is being blown down, normally not the best idea, however in my case, it is sitting right under a window AC unit, so I saw very good results becuase of that.  But the fluid goes from top rad, with COLD air blowing on it, into the lower rad then out to the devices it is cooling.
 
If you are going external I wouldn't necessarily say you need to go with stackables.  Since you are wanting a rad that will perform well with lower pressure ie quieter fans, I would say a Thermochill would be a good idea, I know people who run them with R4's.   When fans are between 2 rads you need one with some solid pressure or your temps will suffer, and I am running Ultra Kaze's, and they are noisey at full speed.  At 1700 RPM they arent bad on volume, but still alot more audible that others like R4's or others of that genre that are meant for high CFM and low noise.
#17
Jump to:
  • Back to Mobile