Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/17 20:54:47
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Zuhl3156
The new driver worked for me at first then after 2 days my ppd dropped to zilch again. I more than tripled my previous ppd for two days in a row and then the bottom fell out. I uninstalled the Folding Client and deleted data, rolled back drivers, updated drivers and I still got squat. A WU that was down to 10 hours increased its duration to 14 hours then 18 hours on my GPU. As much as I want to contribute it isn't worth the electricity to run these projects for me. I have given up and deleted everything including a WU that needed another 18 hours to finish after only being 25% completed.
Yea for me these core15's are causing my pdd to go from ~300k down to ~90k and then I pick up another core17 and go back up to ~300k. Personally I truly do not care what the pdd is, its for a good cause. That being said it is annoying and for anyone wanting to do this competitively, it's a nightmare. Lately I have just been splitting my time between folding and boinc crunching.
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/17 23:40:54
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bcavnaugh
Well for me it is not, Cost Wise for the power needed to run them.
I will remove the Below and all the text with it.
Now see, that I perfectly understand. It's all a measure of cost to benefit for every one of us, and when we reach that threshold it's over. I'm just hoping Stanford can get things working properly again, though I don't hold out much hope.
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yodap
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/18 06:12:43
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Zuhl3156
Grey_Beard
The new driver may have done the trick. Still at over 600,000 ppd. Anyone else seeing an increase since they started using the new driver?
Edit: Just realized that I did not activate SLI, maybe SLI is the issue, not the driver. Will leave this go and see before I go back to activate SLI. Very interesting.
Edit 2: SLI has no impact. Put in SLI after Folding went back down to around 350,000 ppd.
The new driver worked for me at first then after 2 days my ppd dropped to zilch again. I more than tripled my previous ppd for two days in a row and then the bottom fell out. I uninstalled the Folding Client and deleted data, rolled back drivers, updated drivers and I still got squat. A WU that was down to 10 hours increased its duration to 14 hours then 18 hours on my GPU. As much as I want to contribute it isn't worth the electricity to run these projects for me. I have given up and deleted everything including a WU that needed another 18 hours to finish after only being 25% completed.
GPU work units don't take that long on a 980 if that's what your folding with. Something wasn't right. Were you using Advanced Control or the Web Control? After you reinstalled FAH you may have been looking at a CPU wu and not realized it. That would start by default until you killed it in Advanced Control. Even if you were getting the low point core 15's, the 980 would rip right through them in a few hours. If you could post the wu #, PPD,and TPF it would help us get to the bottom of the problem.
post edited by yodap - 2014/11/18 06:16:09
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Zuhl3156
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/18 06:32:54
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yodap
GPU work units don't take that long on a 980 if that's what your folding with. Something wasn't right. Were you using Advanced Control or the Web Control? After you reinstalled FAH you may have been looking at a CPU wu and not realized it. That would start by default until you killed it in Advanced Control. Even if you were getting the low point core 15's, the 980 would rip right through them in a few hours.
If you could post the wu #, PPD,and TPF it would help us get to the bottom of the problem.
I was using Advanced Control. Normally my 980 would rip through a WU in 3 to 4 hours and give me 171k ppd with the 334.60 drivers and 382k+ with the 334.65 drivers using both CPU and GPU. I already deleted everything including the data. All I remember from the WU is the first number in the parentheses was a 0. I remember the server had a weird designation like 0xa4 or something. My CPU kills a WU in an hour or two at times and other times it's almost 4 hours but I get much lower ppd from that. What bugs me is that the GPU WU was down to under 7 hrs to complete and then increased to 10 hrs then 14 hours and finally 18+ hrs with only 25% complaetion. Nothing in my PC has changed. I reinstalled the Chipset drivers, Intel Management Engine, video drivers and anything else I could think of. I might give it a go with the latest 344.75 drivers a little later after I figure out why Far Cry 4 won't launch.
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yodap
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/18 07:37:10
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For sure get it running the way you want, before folding again.
The 0xa4 is definitely a CPU project. I don't run them. If you want to, make sure you run no more than 6 threads (CPU-6) or 4 is even better to give the GPU all the headroom it needs.
Quoting heikosch:
"Core 0x17 projects 9201 and 13001 have a high QRB (Quick Return Bonus), so you get high PPD.
Core 0x15 project 7624 has no bonus, so you get really low PPD (only one third!)"
And I'll add Core 0x18 projects don't play well with Maxwell 970, 980 cards. (better than core15, not as good as core17).
Some of the GPU projects fluctuate the reported tpf and ppd within the time it takes to finish. That's been happening for a while now. It's usually the average of the high/low reports.
I feel your pain, I've quit folding many times, lol when I couldn't justify the hardware and electrical cost vs ppd.
If/when you want to try again, post up some screen shots and we can get you set up optimally, and you can decide if you want to go on from there.
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yodap
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/18 07:54:22
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bcavnaugh
heikosch2
bcavnaugh
heikosch2
@bcavnaugh
Could you please explain your diagrams?
The proportion between credits and PPD for P13001 is incomprehensible.
Heiko
See http://weather.mfc-cs.com/haf/ Image below was taken at time of this post.
I am not comparing PPD to Credit I and comparing;
PPD to PPD between GPUs
Credits to Credits between GPUs
TFP to TFP between GPUs
Work Units to Work Units between GPUs.
There are no values for the GTX 780 in your screenshot.
But I can see that the GTX 680 needs more than 24h to complete P13001. So the PPD value is smaller than the credit value. The mismatch in the proportions between GTX 680 and GTX 780 in the diagrams for credits and PPD confused me. Now it´s clear.
Heiko
Because what you are looking at are live stats, I am NOT Folding on my GTX 780 or 690 today.
But you can now see one of my Titans now.
Well those 680's are starving for something. My 3 660ti's all complete those tasks in about 18 hours for about 75-80k ppd. And here's a reference for a gtx 780 ftw at stock speed for a core 0x17 13000 
Attached Image(s)
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/19 05:15:22
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Drazhar
bcavnaugh
Well for me it is not, Cost Wise for the power needed to run them.
I will remove the Below and all the text with it.
Now see, that I perfectly understand. It's all a measure of cost to benefit for every one of us, and when we reach that threshold it's over.
I'm just hoping Stanford can get things working properly again, though I don't hold out much hope.
There has been some more response from Dr. Pande in the FF. He reports that they reported the driver issue to nvidia in March. I can understand his frustration. He cannot control the level of support or lack or support that a GPU OEM maintains for an open standard ( open CL ) However, it would have been nice to be able to follow this lack of progress more openly...instead of just having WU (core 18) that show up working really poorly with our new cards (Maxwell) From reading between the lines, it does not look like there will be a fix until Nvidia fixes their drivers. This could be soon, or never. ;(
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/19 05:59:41
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mdk7777777
Drazhar
bcavnaugh
Well for me it is not, Cost Wise for the power needed to run them.
I will remove the Below and all the text with it.
Now see, that I perfectly understand. It's all a measure of cost to benefit for every one of us, and when we reach that threshold it's over.
I'm just hoping Stanford can get things working properly again, though I don't hold out much hope.
There has been some more response from Dr. Pande in the FF.
He reports that they reported the driver issue to nvidia in March.
I can understand his frustration. He cannot control the level of support or lack or support that a GPU OEM maintains for an open standard ( open CL )
However, it would have been nice to be able to follow this lack of progress more openly...instead of just having WU (core 18) that show up working really poorly with our new cards (Maxwell)
From reading between the lines, it does not look like there will be a fix until Nvidia fixes their drivers.
This could be soon, or never. ;(
The simplest fix they have available to them is not putting Core18 units out to Maxwell until and unless NVIDIA gets their stuff together then I would imagine. Filter work units to where they will be done efficiently and you maintain a happier donor base. Right?
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/19 07:15:46
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Yeah, that is what I suggested in my PM some weeks ago.
The problem is that they are finishing all of the core 17 projects.
(I don't think they should have launched the core 18 for Maxwell until absolutely necessary)
But in their defense, they have tried to move to a single core design, and let the chips fall where they may.
In the past, this meant that for several years, AMD cards ran like ****...now the pendulum has shifted.
I simply think their grand plan to implement one size fits all OPEN CL is just not working.
The driver support from the OEM is just not there...over time they are ending up alienating everyone...first AMD, and now NVIDIA users.
I think they need to think about optimizing projects...fully vetting the drivers before launch...and telling people (or allowing them to choose) the project that is best optimized for their hardware.
JMHO. ;)
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/19 08:23:09
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mdk7777777
I think they need to think about optimizing projects...fully vetting the drivers before launch...and telling people (or allowing them to choose) the project that is best optimized for their hardware.
JMHO. ;)
Wholeheartedly agreed.
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notfordman
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/20 11:59:08
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bowlinra
bcavnaugh
So for most of our BA Folders what are your Plans for next year when BA Projects are stopped?
No plan yet.. Still in denial, I guess. I can't image there going to let go all these top end servers. I keep thinking they would redo the QRB for SMP that would create something comparable to the BA PPD.
I'll have to so do some soul searching, but it's not likely I'll continue the $300 per month electric bill for 40% of the PPD. More likely I'll move over to support the Crunching team.
I invested in the big boy 4P ,after they made the 980x obsolete. I should have learned my lesson then. That was no small investment [to me] I want to help the folding project, because I feel like it is a good cause in the long run. The biggest disappointment to me is how they treat the donors. I may try SMP and see how it goes, but may eventually go to crunching. The community relations person they put in place must be swamped..... sad face. I want to thank all of you that have stuck with it hoping some things would improve. I feel that I have the best teammates in the folding realm!
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/20 13:17:42
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The community relations person they put in place must be swamped..... sad face.
Yeah, hard to say. I've only seen two posts to the FF...and or the News page.
These involved re-caps of history.
I've seen no inter-action with donors (individual)
Perhaps the emphasis on her work is with Corporate/ institutional donors?
No one knows, or is willing to say. When the conversation of drop in individual donor participation comes up, Dr. Pande warns us not to confabulate the FLOPS with participation due to the large swings in corporate/institutional participation. However, the numbers of individuals either up or down is never clarified. If you look at .extremeoverclocking stats...you find very few people making more than 10K points per day= well less than than 5 thousand donors!!!
Yet when you look at the folding stats page, there are 7416 AMD GPU, 11761 NVDA GPU and a massive 44,000 to 66,000 fermi GPU listed.
Any graphics card will get you 10,000 ppd.
So the discrepancy is huge. 58k or 5k individual donors?
I have pointed out this error, or lack of transparency, or collecting and reporting glitch...several times over the years.
Dr. Pande is aware that the numbers don't add up. He just does not put any urgency in getting them reported correctly.
I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a miss-representation, a knowing lapse of accountability ethics.
It does no good to point this out on the FF. You are merely branded a trouble maker.
Anyway, the reason I go into this...I suggested it as a topic the new relations person could address(clarify, rectify) to the benefit of all involved.
To date, the action is zero.
Fermi GPU are still listed as producing an amazing 178,000 active cores...from a listed 44,000 cards.
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/20 13:37:37
(permalink)
mdk7777777
Drazhar
bcavnaugh
Well for me it is not, Cost Wise for the power needed to run them.
I will remove the Below and all the text with it.
Now see, that I perfectly understand. It's all a measure of cost to benefit for every one of us, and when we reach that threshold it's over.
I'm just hoping Stanford can get things working properly again, though I don't hold out much hope.
There has been some more response from Dr. Pande in the FF.
He reports that they reported the driver issue to nvidia in March.
I can understand his frustration. He cannot control the level of support or lack or support that a GPU OEM maintains for an open standard ( open CL )
However, it would have been nice to be able to follow this lack of progress more openly...instead of just having WU (core 18) that show up working really poorly with our new cards (Maxwell)
From reading between the lines, it does not look like there will be a fix until Nvidia fixes their drivers.
This could be soon, or never. ;(
If it is really a Driver Issue then why we not having issues on our NVIDIA Cards running Projects under BOINC?
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:53:05
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/11/20 14:00:59
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well, here I will defend the process (which is not open or transparent)
1. they start with looking at what equations...optimizations, approximations, computational methods they want to use to study a specific aspect of the very complex chemical,biological process they are studying.
2. Once these equations, simulations are designed, they write a program using open cl
This very specific program is open MM.
3. researchers then write their own experiments(cores, and and projects) using this program(open MM)
4. they test and beta test for points.
So, after all this happens, if one part of the math...one call of an OPEN CL function...now embedded in OPEN MM, and being used in their experimental simulation (core 18) ...if this math function fails on a new architecture(Maxwell) assuming all testing and development work was done on FERMI...they don't have a way to rapidly respond.
To answer your question directly...those programs(other projects other than FOLDING) are not asking the graphics card(MAXWELL) to make the specific math call in open CL.
They are doing simplifier, or more direct, or simply math that doesn't cause the problem.
So, here is where it does become somewhat disingenuous to only blame the OPEN CL drivers from NVIDIA for the problem.
Yes, there is a disconnect between what the open cl says can be done, and what is actually accomplished.
However, since you(the same people who run folding) also write the base program (open MM) you have the responsibility to test and debug.
" I designed my electric car based on what was projected to be the battery capacity of cutting edge technology 5 years ago....turns out that it never happened, so my car can only drive 5 miles between charges instead of 50 miles...I hope consumers will buy the car anyway since it was not my job to produce the batteries."
Yeah, that is not going to happen.
Either test and design with known battery technology...or don't try to sell your design.
Blaming others for the failure of your product...even if 100% true, does not obviate your responsibility to deliver on a usable product.
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 05:41:52
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Well, all threads on the FF regarding core 18, stats and BA have been purged. Thanks Sorto****eek for your ever efficient revisionist book burning/censorship. I guess that's one way to wipe any history of conflict, and unresolved issues. You can now go to a new location to have your questions not answered. https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome
post edited by mdk7777777 - 2014/12/04 05:46:05
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 07:37:00
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mdk7777777
Well, all threads on the FF regarding core 18, stats and BA have been purged.
Thanks Sorto****eek for your ever efficient revisionist book burning/censorship.
I guess that's one way to wipe any history of conflict, and unresolved issues.
You can now go to a new location to have your questions not answered.
https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome
Is this site https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome due do FAH Forum Censorship? I Still have not gotten a Core 18 Projects but also not Folding on my 980's due to the current TZC. Are only the 9xx Cards receiving Core 18 Projects?
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:52:52
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mdk7777777
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 08:20:05
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Is this site https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome due do FAH Forum Censorship? They want to have the FF only used as a technical support site. Hence, any questions of a general nature, questions about how, why, or when...they are going to delete and direct you to this site. Of course, that doesn't mean you will get an answer there either...just allows you to voice your opinion/question...in a place frequented by the fewest possible people. So, you can call it what you want, but there it is. Are only the 9xx Cards receiving Core 18 Projects? No, they are going out to all users. The NV 9xx cards are the ones who see poor results due to the openMM, open CL issue I discussed previously.
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 08:30:05
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Viper97
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 08:43:56
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 09:00:01
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Viper97
One word... Eh.
Yep! and that was why I said OK Reading and not Good Readding 
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:52:02
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texinga
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 09:40:23
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Unfortunately, I see some of the same old people are up to their favorite thing of discounting "new thought" as they have done over in the FAH Forum for years. It would be "a breath of fresh air" if Vijay would address the "nay-sayers" if he actually wants to spark creative suggestion and thought. But if he (again) allows the same old people to run the new Reddit forum into the ground, it will just be FF redux. 
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 11:31:41
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mdk7777777
Are only the 9xx Cards receiving Core 18 Projects?
No, they are going out to all users. The NV 9xx cards are the ones who see poor results due to the openMM, open CL issue I discussed previously.
Isn't core18 still in beta so if you don't run with the beta flag you wont be getting any? Haven't seen any so far on my 980 with the advanced flag.
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 11:48:12
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dave851
mdk7777777
Are only the 9xx Cards receiving Core 18 Projects?
No, they are going out to all users. The NV 9xx cards are the ones who see poor results due to the openMM, open CL issue I discussed previously.
Isn't core18 still in beta so if you don't run with the beta flag you wont be getting any? Haven't seen any so far on my 980 with the advanced flag.
Good to know I am advanced flag on all my Rigs. If so that is it is in Beta then no one has any ground to stand on or compline. Now on the other hand Core 15 is a whole Different Story 
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:51:50
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painis4thaweak
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2014/12/04 13:14:38
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Can confirm Core18s are not isolated to "beta". "Advanced" will net you Core 18s as well. Seen them across all 3 GPUs (970s/680) that I have folding, since October 2014.
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sajinor
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 11:42:40
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Sorta bumping an old thread here, but this seems to have the most recent conversation involving Bigadv.
I went over to shut down my bigadv rig, and noticed it picked up an 8105 this morning. Anyone know when the assignment servers will actually be stopped?
 aF: 4x 8425 HE @ 2.1, H8QMEIBM dx360 B1: 2x L5640 @ 2.53; B2: 2x L5640 @ 2.53Kamehameha: i7-4790K @ 4.4, Antec Kuhler 620, EVGA Z87 Classy, 8GB DDR3 2133, 3x R9 290x, Antec Eleven Hundred V2Primary: i5-3570k @ 4.6, Swiftech H240x Opened, EVGA Z77 FTW, 8GB DDR3 2400, GTX 780 Classified, Fractal Define XL 2
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planetclown
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 12:40:28
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According to this blog post... The BA experiment will permanently end on January 31, 2015. On that date, the servers will be set to accept only and we will have no plans for future BA WUs.
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 12:51:50
(permalink)
planetclown
According to this blog post...
The BA experiment will permanently end on January 31, 2015. On that date, the servers will be set to accept only and we will have no plans for future BA WUs.
I Blame the Above, Sorry for bad info
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:51:36
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sajinor
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 17:50:00
(permalink)
Ah, my mistake, I thought it was on December 31st, not January 31st, that it ended. Well, I have one more month then. bcavnaugh
this blog post... IS A MUST READ TEAM.
Well this is good news
Did FAH give in to the BA users?
The posted change in BA requirements will be revised. The only change in requirements going forward will be to require 24 cores (with according changes in deadlines) and that will occur on May 1, 2014.
Any one knows about this? (with according changes in deadlines)
Note that that deadline passed back in 2014. Bigadv is still shutting down, just a month later than I was thinking.
aF: 4x 8425 HE @ 2.1, H8QMEIBM dx360 B1: 2x L5640 @ 2.53; B2: 2x L5640 @ 2.53Kamehameha: i7-4790K @ 4.4, Antec Kuhler 620, EVGA Z87 Classy, 8GB DDR3 2133, 3x R9 290x, Antec Eleven Hundred V2Primary: i5-3570k @ 4.6, Swiftech H240x Opened, EVGA Z77 FTW, 8GB DDR3 2400, GTX 780 Classified, Fractal Define XL 2
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bill1024
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Re: ADM -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 17:53:42
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In that blog post number 2 reads. ) The BA experiment will permanently end on January 31, 2015. On that date, the servers will be set to accept only and we will have no plans for future BA WUs. This would allow donors to continue to use their machines and recoup more of their investment than the previous plan. This decision would also work to avoid future issues and strife within the FAH community associated with BA. We understand that many donors will be very disappointed about this decision. This was a judgement call I had to make and this decision is, in my opinion, the right thing to do for the long term good of FAH, even though I know there will be many upset donors right now. They kept their word and did not raise the min core count to 32, it stayed at 24. They did cut the time down just a little bit, my 24 thread used to have a day to spare and now only has 8 hours or so. But I do believe it will still end at the end of Jan 2015.
post edited by bill1024 - 2015/01/02 17:54:51
Life is too short to carry a cheap pocket knife. CaseXX, Al Mar, Hubertus, Frank b, A\B, SchattMorgan U25ITA93JV 
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Re: AMD -v- NVIDIA Less 970/980 Cards BA Stopping Next Year, what will our BA users do?
2015/01/02 19:50:08
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Sorry Team. planetclown  The Clown Confused me. Also I correct the ADM to AMD.
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2015/01/02 19:55:49
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