diplomacy

• All contest points that fall below 1.1 x SBI (regardless of whether a portion of that folders points exceed the SBI) receive full credit.

• If your team in aggregate is below their projected points, full points will be awarded.  That is, you are allowed to make up for lost team production from underproducing team members.

• Only contest points that exceed 1.1 x SBI are not awarded full credit for that particular folder.
• This is constantly updated from day 1 of the contest, so when you produce the points is irrelevant.

• There is an inherent ability to modify the point at which the SBI threshold kicks in, as well the rate at which full credit is no longer rewarded.  The current set up probably is not perfect, and certainly can be adjusted as necessary

Gotcha!  Well we had four not running at the time. And the adjustments still happened. And only to a select few at the time I started my thoughts. MANY others are over producing... But now we know a lot more and such...
 
And TBH.. I was looking all over the website (Not this thread) for your thinking

Gratuitous

well, as of last update we have added 5 months to our lead over (H) fold on!

not a bad effort.
just shy of 26million for the day as well.
 
 

Who needs cases?  Fold naked!

Regarding the points balancing, I'd like to see how the following equivalency would work out.
 
Let's say Q put in for 30k points and makes 50k, but L put in for 300k and is making 500k.  They're equivalent on a percentage scale.  Let's say for the sake of argument, Q gets knocked down to 40k points.  Would L get knocked to 400k?
 
The reason I have to ask is because it seems like there'd be a minor discrepancy between someone who estimated high and produces a lot of points (takes less of a hit while helping the team more) and someone who estimated a mid range and produces over.
 
 
The reason I'm concerned is cause I am over on my points because I've decided to run 24-7.  I wasn't sure if I could 24-7 my SR-2, so I put in my usual 12 hour adjusted.  I plan to bring online several other rigs if they'll help the Maniacs, but I'm concerned that if I fire them up, the docked points will negate the machines I'd bring on.

Carlitos714

Just added a Creative PCI X-Fi XtremeGamer to the general pool gift list!

 I had one working in windows 7. I just can't remember which driver I was useing. I have it collecting dust also.

yodap

I think everyone should go all in until we hit 700mil, then back off a little if you want to.

And the best way to achieve that may be to eliminate the handicapping system and move all gifts that are in the competitive pool to the general pool.  It seems that people are reducing production due to the handicap system and that is not a good result.
 
Without full disclosure of the system we can't really tell which team will win, but the handicap system will determine which team will win, not the team output.
 
Which is the better result - the winning team was determined by a formula, or the winning team was determined by who sandbagged their estimates the most?  Neither, really, but at least in the second case people are likely to produce more.
 
 

Punchy

yodap

I think everyone should go all in until we hit 700mil, then back off a little if you want to.

And the best way to achieve that may be to eliminate the handicapping system and move all gifts that are in the competitive pool to the general pool.  It seems that people are reducing production due to the handicap system and that is not a good result.

Without full disclosure of the system we can't really tell which team will win, but the handicap system will determine which team will win, not the team output.

Which is the better result - the winning team was determined by a formula, or the winning team was determined by who sandbagged their estimates the most?  Neither, really, but at least in the second case people are likely to produce more.

 
will they? or will we merely see the other side of the coin, where people feel demoralized because 1 team has an 800 point lead and we don't have the hardware to just "make up" that kind of slack. i think you would see less ppd if the points got way too far out of balance. Right now, even being penalized a little, certain people can still change their team's lot in a big way, but its the more people on the team that make the biggest effect.
 
eg 10 people beat their mark by 10%, full points; 20% nearly full points.
1 person beats his projections by 100%, a lot less points; 400%, well at least hes contributing to the cause :P
 
Honestly the system has a TON of leeway in it. anyone who is complaining about it, changing their behavior because of it is either a) not understanding it or b) upset that they can't single-handedly change the competition.

diplomacy
will they? or will we merely see the other side of the coin, where people feel demoralized because 1 team has an 800 point lead and we don't have the hardware to just "make up" that kind of slack. i think you would see less ppd if the points got way too far out of balance.

Most people here are competitive enough that they will keep going to the end, whether they are competing for first, second or to stay out of last, if they see all of their points going towards their team's total.

kody7839

I'm trying to stay out of the whole formula/points debate but I will say this....




Over 25 million yesterday and that graph is pointing in the right direction 

Awesome work team...keep on folding.

my final thoughts on this are:
 
1. when I signed up for this, being my first contest with you guys, I thought the team vs team aspect was what was being pushed. (marketing looked that way to me) now i have been folding for over a year and I am not going to stop anytime soon, contest or no contest, bucks or no bucks, points or no points. I do it for the research. thought it would be cool to have a little friendly competition. I am willing to output more points than normal for a fun contest.
 
2. I was wondering how things would be balanced. this is very hard to come up with a good system when everyone has deferent equipment and capabilities. (and your not in their houses to check up on them) I think you put a lot of work into the balance. I see a few problems, but nothing worth the time it would take to work out.
 
3. anytime you have a form of monetary gain for winners, you have to have full transparency. your rules of engagement must be redundant and bulletproof. if not you are just asking for trouble. this all needs to be clearly communicated before anyone signs up. I know your intention is good here but it still failed a little. but its getting better:)
 
4. there are a hundred reasons someone might compete in this contest. what is important to one dude, might seem very trivial to another. just realize everyone who is playing the game is good for the game.
 
5. I think if the way the winning team gets to win has more to do with luck, than skill, then all the prizes should be in the general pool. IDK man I don't care about the prizes, but I am sure some people do.
 
anyway. Keep on folding!! the chart looks awsome!! Rock and Roll!! 700 here we come!!
 
edit: I keep forgetting to hit the spell check button
  
 

one nice thing about the contest in that regard is that 90% of the prizes are general purpose just for participating.

staypuft

troy8d

3/4/12

Just to be clear regarding the points system:


The points modification system is not officially in place until approved by a captains vote.  This will happen in the next 48 hours.  Until then, a group of people are looking over the relevant data.


Ultimately, its about what you guys would enjoy most.  I'm simply trying to offer an improvement building upon our previous success.  But if it does not offer additional value to the contest, or the costs outweigh the benefits we will not use it.

Thanks... FWIW I posted a few times about adding hardware into the 'fold' to make up for our two missing teammates.  My added production has been SBI'd even though were are still FAR from hitting our baseline numbers as a team (read: last place).  I would like to know sooner than later if this added horsepower is going to be counted at all because I have to weigh the power bill vs science   It's understood that once these Pimps turn get their rigs going I will back off closer to my original estimate.

I just took a look at the stats and you are getting full credit for your production right now, as it should be.

I for one find these kinds for discussion enlightening. If for nothing else than having a better understanding of others ideas. I also find them to be healthy. Notice I did not attack anyone even though I was accused of supporting, and I quote "
So you advocate a system where the optimal strategy is to misrepresent your points prior to the contest and then completely blow it away once the contest starts."
 
And clearly this is not my position at all.

 
However, to paintbrush folks into one of two camps "Sand baggers" or "Honest" is frankly flawed.
 
I was worried I was going to hurt my team with the lower WU's, as explained earlier. Not winning or losing. HURTING MY TEAM.
 
Now from all these discussions "After" I expressed my thoughts, it is clear that the WU count has nothing to do with the points. Yet no rules express that.
 
That said... This was also asked earlier and not responded to...
 

From the contest page

• (Preliminary) Contestant Adjustment Point System
  • To insure the contest is as competitive as possible, an individual contestants ability to exceed their anticipated contest points will depend on several factors including (margin of deviation, team's performance, and other team's performance).
  • If a number of criteria are met, the contestant will only receive partial credit if they cross a certain threshold.
  • Contestants will never lose contest points for exceeding their projected folding points.  All points and work units produced will improve the contestant's and team's contest points.
  • The system will be sensitive to the unpredictable nature of folding.
  • All contestants will be subject to the exact same criteria.
  • Bottom line: the best way to insure a fair and competitive contest is to give as accurate a prediction as possible and fold as hard as you can throughout the competition.

If this was true... when the contest is about to end... all the handicaps are removed and all our points come back right? Otherwise it is false as the points are adding at a reduce mathematically calculated pace. It does clearly say "Contest Points".
 
I offered a thought/idea that has not yet been replied to. Even though I asked for no PM's I have received no less than ten. My point on the PM's is some folks say one thing here in the threads than they do in a PM... Kind of talking out of two sides of their mouths.
 
This is a portion of one of the PM's I replied to, that I have not yet received a response to in over 14 hours...
 

---

I really dig the idea of multiple folks being able to attack this contest from their own wants.

• 700 and 25 mill for one day... GO all out, just do not count on your points. As I was in the top four producers on the team, but was third from the bottom in points.
• Go for points.. Stay about 15% above or less of your predicted numbers and add points!!
• Set it and forget it, just be there as a part of the team...

Not sure if that is the intent... But man that is sweet! Multiple angles of attack... And each member adds value.
 
It would have been more fun if the extra production went into one bucket that was evened out to all of the teams throughout the contest. And the original points stayed as they originally predicted.
 
Here is what I mean...
 
10 teams... One player on each team does 1500 more production than they predicted. Four of those teams had players also do 20,000 more. That is a total of 95,000 extra production (Not knowing how the points are figured out let's let that assume to be the same for argument sake)
 
Now this 95,000 is equally distributed into the ten teams, so each team gets 9500 extra.
 
This allows for those wanting to produce like wildfire for what ever reason including the chase for 700m/25m can, and helps all the teams.
 
After all. I did not get to pick the team I was on right? It was strategically balanced for a close contest correct? Why not divide the loot? Then anyone could win and so does the cause.
 
It seems a tad better than removing 90% of the additional production for one, and 37% for another and so on. Even if only for that one person or few who "Actually" like to try and win at as many angles as possible... Otherwise why call it a contest, instead of a WU raiser (AKA Fund raiser) or Accomplish/Achieve a set Goal? By removing points it rigs the contest. Because in this very instance.. A teammate who predicted 35k PPD (Look at screen shot I posted Lu523 has 70k and 91.6 points)  and is producing it, has over twice the points I do. So yeah, I am hurting my team by having a 600% production instead of 100%.
 

---

 That idea basically allows folks to run as they like and it helps everyone...
I am offering this because every single one of you are saying winning is not important. So then this idea should have some merit since all the teams gained the extra effort put forth by those who chose to offer more production right?
 
700/25 goal... Check!
Going all out for max production... Check!
Set it and forget it, let the chips fall where they fall... Check!
 
But... a lot of conflicting info is going around... One hand... All about 700... Another. All about fairness... Another. Sandbagger patrol... 
 
So if this is not about winning. Why the handicap? Why have teams?
 
If this is about killing sandbaggers.. Then just say it. Tell everyone a set production number is expected and anything over it is not counted. Then the measurement will be by how much hardware failures there are and WU drop times...
 
If this is about 700/25 why have teams?
 
And I think this is being overlooked. This idea is really cool. Having multiple angles of attack is rather refreshing. I am only offering my view.
 
I see all this as healthy... The real contest does not start for another week ish and it seems they folks running this contest are doing a fantastic job of analyzing this to make it fun and productive. Please do not assume I am upset and challenging anyone. I am only offering one persons point of view.

A few thoughts:
 

• The term "sandbagger" is probably not the best light in which to view it.  I am not aware of anyone that has intentionally misrepresented their production.
• Folding points are typically hard to predict accurately.  This is taken into account in two ways:
  • A certain degree of leeway is provided to all contestants
  • The measuring stick is everyone else: we're all facing the same fluctuation Stanford throws our way.
• One major difference in the contest this year is that we have a lot of people who are crunching as well as folding.  When they signed up, they intended to devote a specified portion of their resources to folding and the rest remaining with crunching.  When the contest kicks off, people get excited and want to maximize their output.  It is far easier for some to increase their production by switching a few extra boxes over.  If they were evenly distributed across teams, this wouldn't be a problem - however, there is no good way to measure this untapped potential.
• @staypuft - it appears your team is hovering right around the line of +/- production as a team.  A better implementation would be to have a scalar penalty relative to the position of your team rather than a hard and fast cut off.
  • With this in mind, I think that if the systems is used, this would be an essential element.
  • This would also better reflect the magnitude a single individual's efforts has in making team scores uncompetitive.
• The general idea is: don't let a small number of outliers ruin the competitive nature of the contest for everyone else.  Teamwork is key to our success as Team EVGA and that should be reflected in the contest as well.
• I will work on updating the teams pages to display stats both ways.

Punchy

Who needs cases?  Fold naked!

Half naked. The case I bought - Aerocool XPredator Black Edition - is driving me nuts. So I've just put all parts back together to resume folding and see after the contest what I will do with the case. Probably I'll return it and get something else.